Mooney Down - W00 - Freeway Airport - Maryland

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, Dreamlifter said:

 

Aborted take off due to an instrument problem. Pooch officially screwed... one chain link fence, a ditch, a direct left wing hit by a Camery and a spin into a jersey wall that rolled the right wing up like a cannolli - no deformation of the fuselage. Remarkable how well the airframe held up. 

[aviatoreb]

There is a stroke of luck with the wings ripping off there was no fire.

[DonMuncy]

With no intent to sound critical, what kind of instrumentation  problem would cause one to attempt to abort a takeoff late in the roll.

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, DonMuncy said:

With no intent to sound critical, what kind of instrumentation  problem would cause one to attempt to abort a takeoff late in the roll.

I could see that if the airspeed indicator read zero that it may cause a knee jerk reaction to abort, not knowing if you've achieved enough speed for takeoff.

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

With no intent to sound critical, what kind of instrumentation  problem would cause one to attempt to abort a takeoff late in the roll.

None I know of that should lead to that, unless it was an instrument showing the engine was failing or something like that.    If my oil pressure went to zero it'd be a tough decision.

 

[carusoam]

2400’ runway... not terribly short for ordinary operations....

The decision to abort comes up fast...

-a-

https://www.airnav.com/airport/W00

[DonMuncy]

1 minute ago, flyboy0681 said:

I could see that if the airspeed indicator read zero that it may cause a knee jerk reaction to abort, not knowing if you've achieved enough speed for takeoff.

I think I might be able to understand that. I always check for airspeed early in the roll, but I don't know how long it would take me realize it had not come alive and I had to do something.

[Ragsf15e]

Wonder how hard it was to egress? Door appears blocked by the aptly named cannoli wing.

Nevermind, video shows only half the wing turned into a cannoli.  Egress looked normal except for traffic.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Ragsf15e

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

With no intent to sound critical, what kind of instrumentation  problem would cause one to attempt to abort a takeoff late in the roll.

Seriously 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

I could see that if the airspeed indicator read zero that it may cause a knee jerk reaction to abort, not knowing if you've achieved enough speed for takeoff.

I have flown in and out of that airport in my plane on a hot day and it is more than adequate enough to get airspeed to take off. An airspeed indicator is nice, but it sure as heck isn’t required on the VFR day 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

I think I might be able to understand that. I always check for airspeed early in the roll, but I don't know how long it would take me realize it had not come alive and I had to do something.

It is happened to me, and you figure it out just about at the time the airplane is ready to lift off. 

[chrisk]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

With no intent to sound critical, what kind of instrumentation  problem would cause one to attempt to abort a takeoff late in the roll.

I've aborted a take off before due to the door popping open.  Plenty of runway left, so that was an easy choice.  

A fouled plug on takeoff, and an associated engine miss on takeoff, was a much harder  decision.  I didn't abort that take off, because aborting would have meant ending up in a corn field. And continuing and having the engine quite would have also meant ending up in the same Nebraska corn field.  I did return to the field,  and had the field mechanic pull the plugs and perform a compression check.

As to an instrument problem.  If there is plenty of runway, I'd abort.  If I had a  chance of over running the field (less than 2000 feet left at lift off), I'd continue with the take off.  For a 2400 foot runway, any abort would have to happen really early in a take off run to have a chance of success.   

[ArtVandelay]

None I know of that should lead to that, unless it was an instrument showing the engine was failing or something like that.    If my oil pressure went to zero it'd be a tough decision.
 

Yea, because it could be a instrument/sender problem as oppose to a engine problem. As you lose oil, doesn’t that result in higher oil temperatures? It would be nice verify a single indicator.


Tom

[larrynimmo]

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I have flown in and out of that airport in my plane on a hot day and it is more than adequate enough to get airspeed to take off. An airspeed indicator is nice, but it sure as heck isn’t required on the VFR day 

I have flown it on a cool day...believe me an M20J near max weight and 95 degree air, that runway is too short if you abort takeoff at rotation Speed.  If your really good you might not make it onto rt 50, but you won’t be flying that plane for awhile.

as for the vfr flight requirements, it appears to me they were on an IFR flight plan...according to flight aware, or they were going to activate it in the air.  We all need to know when we can abort a takeoff...or just go around for a safe landing....and repair the instrument issue

[jetdriven]

It’s not long enough to get to 55kt and the reject the takeoff. But it’s long enough to take off. Or reject at low speed.  

[Jerry 5TJ]

To add to the “me too” commentary—I have flown in and out of Freeway Airport in C, E, J and R models.  The airport is home to a long-serving MSC.  The one runway has some challenges including no excess of length, obstructions at both ends and complex over-lying airspace.  Otherwise it’s like any other 2400’ paved strip near sea level.  

[mike_elliott]

Gladewaters' short runway and people overrunning their long bodies was the reason Maxwell aviation moved to Longview. I think it is longer than 2400. Any of the Mooney's are capable of 2400' runways, many of the pilots not so much. This being a TO incident (still yet another TO issue), this can only be considered "a contributing factor" not a cause.

[steingar]

2400 feet?  If I couldn't read airspeed I'd wind up in an overrun.  It takes the human mind a few seconds to register these things.  A few seconds is too long for a 2400 foot strip in a Mooney.

This is actually a good thread for me. I've never really briefed what I'm going to do it I don't see the airspeed or some other important instrument.  Usually it's no big deal, I land and takeoff from long runways and have plenty of time.  But taking off from shorter runways (like the one earlier this month) I'm going to have a plan if I don' see what I want.  Plan could be to take off anyway, in VFR conditions I don't really need the airspeed or anything else, I can kluge together a landing using the other instruments, especially at a longer runway.  Earlier this month I took off form a 2500 foot grass strip and landed a 12,000 asphalt one, for example.

[byrdflyr]

Glad that ended without major injury. The end of the runway pavement is 70 feet from the edge of the divided highway, which seems very dangerous to me.  I noticed 11 Mooney A/C in the Google Maps picture, and a twin.  My guess is that "Freeway Airport" was put there when most tenants had fabric wings.  Is there an arresting technology that could work in this GA situation?  Either a soft surface, or netting.  I might install a tail hook if I had to use Rwy 36 often. 

[Shadrach]

Instrument are great to have but not necessary for a VFR go around. Instrument operation should be verified to the extent possible during the initial takeoff roll. After that, eyes outside. I can imagine a number instrument malfunctions  that would reinforce the urge to abort takeoff. No ASI, no problem. ASI erroneously reading low...big problem

[BKlott]

13 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

With no intent to sound critical, what kind of instrumentation  problem would cause one to attempt to abort a takeoff late in the roll.

No or decreasing fuel flow / fuel pressure comes to mind. Happened to me once in a PA28-140. Was rolling down the runway with the boost pump on. As it started getting light I glanced at the fuel pressure gauge, which was now reading zero, and aborted. Hadn’t behaved that way on the left tank earlier that morning or during the run up on the right tank just prior to the takeoff. Only manifested itself after the application of full power.

I would recommend checking fuel flow / fuel pressure before rotation on every takeoff. It became my routine after experiencing two power losses on departure in my otherwise beloved Cheetah. Good thing I had learned that lesson before the Cherokee had it’s chance to get me.

Edited September 13, 2019 by BKlott

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

with me its about 2 seconds in and it should be doing approx 20-30 by then if note more.,  at my home airport I know it should be doing 50 by the time I pass the alpha taxiway.   Having said that, do you ACTUALLY need airspeed on a good VFR day, or could you takeoff without it, climb to pattern and do a circuit.  I would say it would be possible.

It’s certainly possible. I’ve done it a couple times when we had  a tennis ball to cover the pitot tube. Now I don’t do that anymore. 

[carusoam]

Only related to some of the issues shared in this accident...

 

 

Some PP thoughts...

How much time do you get to check engine instruments?

How do you asses your bird is producing full power?

 

I get a glance at MP, RPM, and FF, before the ASI comes alive...

maintaining centerline becomes an added challenge...

Everything else was checked before and during the run-up... don’t forget DA in the preflight checks...

 

DA will affect your power and T/O length by a known amount.  Don’t forget to look it up! 

Side note... OilT won’t rise fast enough to tell if the oil stopped flowing...

 

The important thing to know is where you need to be at the halfway point... then act...

We have an arrester cable like system on each Mooney... raise the gear.  

You will either be flying, or scraping to a shorter halt then you ever have before with the wheels down ...  either would be better than rolling through a fence and out into traffic...

 

Set yourself a goal...

1) where is the halfway point?

2) where is the nearest field straight ahead?

3) Throttle in... quick glance MP, rpm, FF... no fixation allowed, glance and go...

4) AS alive... if ASI doesn’t come alive... your choice... Stop or use alternative means.  GPS makes a good alternative for later use...

5) halfway point... flying, or nearly flying and still accelerating...

6) Short runways demand us to be our best and prep the alternatives prior to T/O.

7) Going down a short runway and accelerating normally is an already uncomfortable feeling when the trees start getting larger in the windscreen...

8) If you haven’t been through this decision process before...

Find the video of the K that runs through a fence and into a berm at near flying speed.  (The K’s issue was it was mechanically not producing full power, long enough to know better)

9) Warm summer months, short runways, and a loaded plane... know your numbers before the throttle gets pushed in.

10) This list of points is not intended to cover the accident in this thread...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... trying to get some talking points in while they are still relevant...

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Only related to some of the issues shared in this accident...

Some PP thoughts...

How much time do you get to check engine instruments?

How do you asses your bird is producing full power?

I know the above questions were mostly retoricaI in nature. I think everyone answers them somewhat differently. I definitely like data but during take off my eyes are mostly outside of the cockpit. I verify everything is in the green just after opening the throttle to max power. After that I’m outside and relying on my calibrated backside to verify things are continuing as they should. It would take a major malfunction to cause an abort on a short runway.

There are two short runway scenarios that scare me:

1) forgetting to tighten the the throttle vernier after landing/before take off..

2) forgetting to latch the luggage door and having it lift just before rotation too far down the runway to successfully abort.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Shadrach

[Ragsf15e]

24 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I know the above questions were mostly retoricaI in nature. I think everyone answers them somewhat differently. I definitely like data but during take off my eyes are mostly outside of the cockpit. I verify everything is in the green just after opening the throttle to max power. After that I’m outside and relying on my calibrated backside to verify things are continuing as they should. It would take a major malfunction to cause an abort on a short runway.

There are two short runway scenarios that scare me:

1) forgetting to tighten the the throttle venier after landing/before take off..

2) forgetting to latch the luggage door and having it lift just before rotation too far down the runway to successfully abort.

This would be my take on those...

1.  Hand should remain on the throttle until at least pattern altitude or higher.

2. Don’t stop unless at taxi speed or very long runway.  Yeah, it’ll be loud, maybe expensive too.  But the airplane will fly just fine.

Whats your thoughts?