Prospective Mooney Buyer, Fair Price?

[Derek]

I'm looking to buy a M20. At it's face, Does this seem like a fair price? Should I be suspicious?

145k for a 1990 M20J with 1050TT

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2364151&s-type=aircraft&s-seq=1&s-lvl=4

[Trailboss]

My biggest lookout would be the lack of TT.  That means it's been sitting.  Take the offer of a "Fresh Annual" and make it a progressive Pre-Purchase Inspection, and make certain the camshaft is in OK condition.

[Austintatious]

Agree with trailboss....  that is an average of 3 hours a month since it was new... and it is likely that it has gone long periods without being FLOWN.  This means the oil has time to run off of the internal parts of the engine leaving them susceptible to rust.  If it were me, I would want that engine thoroughly examined/scoped to look for rust that may have formed inside it.

Manufacturers say the engine is due for OH at TBO or 10 years...  This engine is 28 years old with at least half its expected hours....  Not real confidence inspiring to me.  That being said, most of my experience is with those noisy high pitched sucky/blowy sort of engines

Edited August 21, 2019 by Austintatious

[gsxrpilot]

I'd want to know the history over the last five years. Has it always been current and in annual? Have any annuals lapsed? And how many hours were flown between each of the list five annuals.

From the pictures, it looks like a hangar queen, which is good for somethings, but not good for the engine.

[gsxrpilot]

"Purchase with fresh annual" is always a red flag for me. Likely the plane has been sitting around and is out of annual. I've seen situations where it's been out of annual five years, so now they'll whip up an annual for you so you can fly it home...

[wcb]

check out this one with a recent price drop

https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1171/1978-mooney-201-m20j

[Derek]

The sitting around without flying is exactly what I was referring to by being suspicious.

Let's say it was an issue, worst case I'm likely looking at an overhaul, right?

Maybe they'd flex the price a bit given it would probably need one.

[Yetti]

34 minutes ago, Trailboss said:

My biggest lookout would be the lack of TT.  That means it's been sitting.  Take the offer of a "Fresh Annual" and make it a progressive Pre-Purchase Inspection, and make certain the camshaft is in OK condition.

There is not a feasible way to check the camshaft.   No one is going to let you pull a cylinder.  You could do a wobble test and a leak down compression and get a "today things seem OK"   But that will only give you 25-50 hours of confidence.   Engines are a crapshoot.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Yetti

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, Derek said:

The sitting around without flying is exactly what I was referring to by being suspicious.

Let's say it was an issue, worst case I'm likely looking at an overhaul, right?

Maybe they'd flex the price a bit given it would probably need one.

Correct. If it has been sitting... it's gonna need an engine. Otherwise, assuming it's been hangared, it might be in really nice condition.

The one that @wcb mentioned, is not as nice a year model. It'd doesn't have the later year J upgrades such as removable back seats. But it's a much better buy IMO.

It's got a low time engine, a Garmin 650 and Stec 55 autopilot.

 

[Derek]

21 minutes ago, wcb said:

check out this one with a recent price drop

https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1171/1978-mooney-201-m20j

Compelling, thanks for the find. I hear good things about van bortel

[Derek]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Correct. If it has been sitting... it's gonna need an engine. Otherwise, assuming it's been hangared, it might be in really nice condition.

The one that @wcb mentioned, is not as nice a year model. It'd doesn't have the later year J upgrades such as removable back seats. But it's a much better buy IMO.

It's got a low time engine, a Garmin 650 and Stec 55 autopilot.

 

These later year upgrades... Are they mostly things one could do for reasonable prices? Like the seats if I cared to do that?

Anything that would really impact the total cost of ownership?

Thanks so much for the help. Btw.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm not sure the seats could be changed or retrofitted. But the removable back seats are a VERY nice feature. Especially if you don't often have people in the back seats.

There are a few other things like the wing tips that could probably be added later. I think LASAR makes a kit. 

It's still a J, just not one of the most desirable years of the J.

[Mufflerbearing]

When it comes to planes, a deal is not ever a deal.  The hard part is finding the one you want with the things in it you want, or get a lesser plane and then build it the way you want it.  I believe that the engine on this is very suspicious.  If you pursue this plane, at least you know you will probably be looking at an engine in the near future.

[Aerodon]

I like low TT and unmolested airframes (prefer to do that myself).  I would pay a premium for a low TT anyway.  You are going to get hit with a bunch of deferred maintenance items, but then it settles down.  The seller would like to value the plane as a mid life engine.  I would argue that the engine is done, and would pay somewhere in the middle.

If I could arrive at some logic for the asking price (Vref, Bluebook etc) and a slight discount for the engine then I say go for it.   

In 1998 I bought a C172 with 18 years and 650 tt on the airframe and the infamous H2AD engine. Lots of years just standing.  The lifters were really bad at the first annual, we changed them and then looked at 1 cylinder every year.  We got to 1800tt without any further lifters or cam failure on a non-T mod engine, then swapped out for a 180hp engine.  The original engine would have done 2000 hours over 35 years.  The low TT paid off, interior, paint, control cables etc were all still fine after 35 years.

I also think you need to look at this a little differently, even if you were to pay too much for it now, you would get years of satisfaction having a nice plane to fly, and then still have a pristine M20J plane to sell with a proven engine and maintenance record, without any lingering doubts about the engine.

And I think its been pointed out that only plane owners seem hell bent on maintaining value, whereas car and boat owners routinely accept a reasonable depreciation on the asset as part of the cost of having something nice to drive / sail?

 

Don

 

 

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

7 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

And I think its been pointed out that only plane owners seem hell bent on maintaining value, whereas car and boat owners routinely accept a reasonable depreciation on the asset as part of the cost of having something nice to drive / sail?

Because we can. I made money on my M20C and would make money on the M20K if I sold it today. A C172 might be a different story as there are so many of them and they are still making them, or were making them. You can't buy a short or mid-body Mooney brand new anymore. And they are arguably more desirable than the long bodies. So buy right and you can maintain or even increase the investment.

[wcb]

39 minutes ago, Derek said:

Compelling, thanks for the find. I hear good things about van bortel

I thought it was compelling with a big price drop (find out why).  The few Mooney's I have seen on their site have been over priced in my opinion and the last was listed for a very long time.  Someone may have reconsidered their Mooney valuations to get that one sold and dropped the price on this one.  They seem to be the place for a Cessna TTX though (Shhh)!

 

Dont forget All American.  They are in TX and probably have the best reputation when it comes to Mooney's

I found this one interesting as well.

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/77988539/1988-mooney-m20j-205

 

If they just had a turbo normalizer like my F I might consider trading in on something like those two (if staying 4 cyl mid body mooney)

[Oldguy]

58 minutes ago, wcb said:

check out this one with a recent price drop

https://vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/1171/1978-mooney-201-m20j

And this one has a couple of things I like better than the newer one like co-pilot brakes (at least it looks like it does), the EDM 900, Rosen visors, and the PMA audio panel just to name a few.

While the newer one might have some better appointments, by the time you finish spending on it (likely with an engine overhaul), you could put the same money into the older one and have a much sounder plane as well as doing the interior, IMHO.

[bradp]

Red flags for the first one are 

1) hangar queen not flow (last in the system in 2012)

2) new prop (maybe not because of #1) but no disclosure of the likely prop strike 

3) overpriced for what it is and

4) no ADSB compliance. 

Id be much more comfortable with the 78 at van bortel.  Someone loved that plane and kept it up incrementally with improvements over the years.  That plane is probably with 110-118 depending on if it’s as represented  

A well maintained older mooney that is flown is more valuable than a hangar queen in my book. Airframe hours don’t matter too much for our planes.  Piper arrow at 7k hours i saw the insides of was a mess.  Mooney at 7k hrs meh. It’s built well.  Wear items on the airframe aren’t that many. 

[Guest]

I’m with Don, I’d pursue the newer one and negotiate on the engine time or get an agreement to pull a cylinder.

Clarence

[Derek]

35 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I’m with Don, I’d pursue the newer one and negotiate on the engine time or get an agreement to pull a cylinder.

Clarence

To be honest this is my inkling also.

I just got scans of the records, prop logs, etc...

Time to start learning!

[Derek]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Red flags for the first one are 

1) hangar queen not flow (last in the system in 2012)

2) new prop (maybe not because of #1) but no disclosure of the likely prop strike 

3) overpriced for what it is and

4) no ADSB compliance. 

Id be much more comfortable with the 78 at van bortel.  Someone loved that plane and kept it up incrementally with improvements over the years.  That plane is probably with 110-118 depending on if it’s as represented  

A well maintained older mooney that is flown is more valuable than a hangar queen in my book. Airframe hours don’t matter too much for our planes.  Piper arrow at 7k hours i saw the insides of was a mess.  Mooney at 7k hrs meh. It’s built well.  Wear items on the airframe aren’t that many. 

Regarding adsb. I didn't catch that the xponder wasn't adsb. I suppose come 2020 I'd be on the hook for that upgrade.

What sort of cost is that, ballpark?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Derek

[MIm20c]

2 minutes ago, Derek said:

What sort of cost is that, ballpark?

Between $2k and $60k depending on how good of a salesman you are with the SO. The adsb mandate has sold a lot of avionics and filled many install shops. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Derek said:

To be honest this is my inkling also.

I just got scans of the records, prop logs, etc...

Time to start learning!

1000 hours of log books shouldn’t take a long time to read.  You can generate your own list for AD’s and SB’s, use the PPI check list in the downloads section “safety and techniques “ to start your own research.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet you can search for the airframe, engine, propeller and accessories 

Mooney Service bulletins and service instructions here

https://www.mooney.com/service

Clarence

[ZuluZulu]

20 minutes ago, Derek said:

Regarding adsb. I didn't catch that the xponder wasn't adsb. I suppose come 2020 I'd be on the hook for that upgrade.

What sort of cost is that, ballpark?

Quick and dirty route is the skyBeacon, about $2,000 with minimal installation cost, but it has limitations.  GDL 82 costs about the same but is a little more involved to install.  For a full-blown ADS-B In/Out solution expect about $10,000 or more for hardware and installation.  AOPA has a good explainer here (click the links in the chart to see the lists of UAT, UAT/WAAS, and Mode S solutions) and Flying has a rundown of some of the most common options (circa December 2016) here.

The tougher issue might be finding a shop with availability before December 31, 2019.

[RogueOne]

3 hours ago, wcb said:

I thought it was compelling with a big price drop (find out why).  The few Mooney's I have seen on their site have been over priced in my opinion and the last was listed for a very long time.  Someone may have reconsidered their Mooney valuations to get that one sold and dropped the price on this one.  They seem to be the place for a Cessna TTX though (Shhh)!

 

Dont forget All American.  They are in TX and probably have the best reputation when it comes to Mooney's

I found this one interesting as well.

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/77988539/1988-mooney-m20j-205

 

If they just had a turbo normalizer like my F I might consider trading in on something like those two (if staying 4 cyl mid body mooney)

So this seems like a good value vs. the first plane is a HUGE question mark on the engine.