Questions about M20F and Mooney's in general

[nathan lively]

I'm looking to purchase my first aircraft and I have been all over the map on the type I want to buy. I originally was leaning toward Bonanza 35s but its hard to find a '60 (for loan purposes) or newer model that doesn't need a lot of work or is 65K+ I also want to keep the maintenance and insurance cost as low as possible. On top of that I want some speed at an economical rate and the ability to take friends on short trips. The useful load is important to me and the Bonanza fleet is lacking in this area. I have found promising Bos but find out they have a useful load of 800lbs. The wife and I have some friends that weight a decent amount so the 800lbs is about 150lbs short of what I need to carry them and fly for 1.5 with .5 reserve. Though the M20s have a "smaller" cabin, they would allow me hit all of my requirements while only giving up head room in the cabin. I have found a M20F that has a useful load of 1050lbs and is well equipped and in my price range. So the question I have for the group comes from a place where I don't know much about Mooneys, I have yet to sit in one (plan to fix that in the next day or two), and I'm 6ft tall and 180lbs.

- For those of you about my size, do you have any issues being comfortable in the cabin? I also like my rudder peddles really close to me, a trick I learned from flying twins. 

- With a smaller engine and fairly simple design, how much does the maintenance cost typically run and what things should I be looking out for? 

- I really like the idea of the J-bar gear, what items with the gear should I look at to be replaced or require closer investigation?

- Is the flaps run by an electric motor, and if so how reliable is it? 

- How well do the M20s do on grass fields? Something I would like to have the ability to do.

- I've seen the M20s have a wet wing but also recall that some have bladders. Does it depend on the model and year?

- With the M20s being narrower in the engine compartment is there any over heating issues similar to the Grumman AA-5 line of aircraft?

- Any books or places to go you guys would recommend for me to do more research? I've done a ton of research on the Bos and feel behind on the learning curve for the M20 series.

Hopefully I didn't open too big a can of worms and I greatly appreciate any help you all provide!

 

[Boilermonkey]

9 minutes ago, nathan lively said:

I'm looking to purchase my first aircraft and I have been all over the map on the type I want to buy. I originally was leaning toward Bonanza 35s but its hard to find a '60 (for loan purposes) or newer model that doesn't need a lot of work or is 65K+ I also want to keep the maintenance and insurance cost as low as possible. On top of that I want some speed at an economical rate and the ability to take friends on short trips. The useful load is important to me and the Bonanza fleet is lacking in this area. I have found promising Bos but find out they have a useful load of 800lbs. The wife and I have some friends that weight a decent amount so the 800lbs is about 150lbs short of what I need to carry them and fly for 1.5 with .5 reserve. Though the M20s have a "smaller" cabin, they would allow me hit all of my requirements while only giving up head room in the cabin. I have found a M20F that has a useful load of 1050lbs and is well equipped and in my price range. So the question I have for the group comes from a place where I don't know much about Mooneys, I have yet to sit in one (plan to fix that in the next day or two), and I'm 6ft tall and 180lbs.

- For those of you about my size, do you have any issues being comfortable in the cabin? I also like my rudder peddles really close to me, a trick I learned from flying twins. 

- With a smaller engine and fairly simple design, how much does the maintenance cost typically run and what things should I be looking out for? 

- I really like the idea of the J-bar gear, what items with the gear should I look at to be replaced or require closer investigation?

- Is the flaps run by an electric motor, and if so how reliable is it? 

- How well do the M20s do on grass fields? Something I would like to have the ability to do.

- I've seen the M20s have a wet wing but also recall that some have bladders. Does it depend on the model and year?

- With the M20s being narrower in the engine compartment is there any over heating issues similar to the Grumman AA-5 line of aircraft?

- Any books or places to go you guys would recommend for me to do more research? I've done a ton of research on the Bos and feel behind on the learning curve for the M20 series.

Hopefully I didn't open too big a can of worms and I greatly appreciate any help you all provide!

 

You'll find plenty of Mooneys in that price range.

- For those of you about my size, do you have any issues being comfortable in the cabin? I also like my rudder peddles really close to me, a trick I learned from flying twins. 

>I'm a bit larger and I am totally comfortable.  

- With a smaller engine and fairly simple design, how much does the maintenance cost typically run and what things should I be looking out for? 

>$4k-$6k per year.  Some might say less, but in my experience with older airplanes this is the reality.   Bigger items would be corrosion, leaking tanks, nose gear truss, engine, prop, avionics.

- I really like the idea of the J-bar gear, what items with the gear should I look at to be replaced or require closer investigation?

>I prefer the J-bar.  It should be easy to swing up and down...anyone who says you need a lot of muscle to do it hasn't had their gear worked on in awhile.  also make sure the shock disks are less than 10 years old.

- Is the flaps run by an electric motor, and if so how reliable is it? 

>Depends on the year.  Mine are manual hydraulic.

- How well do the M20s do on grass fields? Something I would like to have the ability to do.

>They were designed in the era where that was common, so they are designed for it.  Just a question of pilotage.

- I've seen the M20s have a wet wing but also recall that some have bladders. Does it depend on the model and year?

>Yes, and aftermarket.

- With the M20s being narrower in the engine compartment is there any over heating issues similar to the Grumman AA-5 line of aircraft?

>No.  But they scrape your hands when you work on them ;-)

- Any books or places to go you guys would recommend for me to do more research? I've done a ton of research on the Bos and feel behind on the learning curve for the M20 series.

>You found the right place.

[kpaul]

5 minutes ago, nathan lively said:

I'm looking to purchase my first aircraft and I have been all over the map on the type I want to buy. I originally was leaning toward Bonanza 35s but its hard to find a '60 (for loan purposes) or newer model that doesn't need a lot of work or is 65K+ I also want to keep the maintenance and insurance cost as low as possible. On top of that I want some speed at an economical rate and the ability to take friends on short trips. The useful load is important to me and the Bonanza fleet is lacking in this area. I have found promising Bos but find out they have a useful load of 800lbs. The wife and I have some friends that weight a decent amount so the 800lbs is about 150lbs short of what I need to carry them and fly for 1.5 with .5 reserve. Though the M20s have a "smaller" cabin, they would allow me hit all of my requirements while only giving up head room in the cabin. I have found a M20F that has a useful load of 1050lbs and is well equipped and in my price range. So the question I have for the group comes from a place where I don't know much about Mooneys, I have yet to sit in one (plan to fix that in the next day or two), and I'm 6ft tall and 180lbs.

- For those of you about my size, do you have any issues being comfortable in the cabin? I also like my rudder peddles really close to me, a trick I learned from flying twins. 

You will find many on this board that exceed your size and do not have any issues.  I am 6'1" and 220, no issues in my F.  The pedals do not move fore/aft however there are rudder extension kits that can be added, however you will probably not need them.

- With a smaller engine and fairly simple design, how much does the maintenance cost typically run and what things should I be looking out for?

Maintenance will vary (sorry bad answer).  A good PPI with someone who knows Mooneys is key.  Corrosion can be an issue.

- I really like the idea of the J-bar gear, what items with the gear should I look at to be replaced or require closer investigation?

Generally just the gear pucks and nose truss.  The pucks can get hard if they are old.  The nose truss is occasionally bent by line tech uneducated in towing Mooneys with their limited turn radius.

- Is the flaps run by an electric motor, and if so how reliable is it? 

On a J-Bar or Mooney that was converted to electric gear the flaps are hydraulic. The rest are electric.  This is not a typical failure area. 

- How well do the M20s do on grass fields? Something I would like to have the ability to do.

They can operate on grass, most choose not to.  Look up youtube videos of piperpainter.

- I've seen the M20s have a wet wing but also recall that some have bladders. Does it depend on the model and year?

All came factory with wet wing.  Bladders is a mod that can be added.

- With the M20s being narrower in the engine compartment is there any over heating issues similar to the Grumman AA-5 line of aircraft?

Most do not have cooling issues as long as the engine baffling is in good condition. 

- Any books or places to go you guys would recommend for me to do more research? I've done a ton of research on the Bos and feel behind on the learning curve for the M20 series.

You have come to the right place.  There is more Mooney information in the forum than probably anywhere else.

Hopefully I didn't open too big a can of worms and I greatly appreciate any help you all provide!

 

 

[Hank]

You will fit in a Mooney just fine, and will not give up any headroom. One member here is 6'9" and has no headroom issue. An F is certainly grass field capable; I take my C into good grass fields without worry.

If you find a Mooney with J bar gear, it will have hydraulic flaps; some have been converted in the past to electric gear. All Mooneys built since 1969 have electric gear and flaps. Just lube it regularly and there is little other maintenance required. 

For fuel, all Mooneys are built with wet wings. Some owners install bladders instead of fixing tank leaks. This is a controversial topic here . . . Bladders cost more, weigh more and introduce the chance of trapping water in wrinkles. Extended range tanks can be added without converting to bladders if desired.

Good luck and happy hunting!

[Marauder]

Nathan - there are a number of F owners who are a lot larger than you (me being one). Size won’t be an issue.

I think since you have a plane in mind, maybe find one or two F owners to help you assess it and prepare you for what to look for. Airplanes of this age group as you have already seen are all over the spectrum when it comes to condition. As a 28 year F model owner, I would certainly share what I know. PM me if you like to talk Fs.


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[neilpilot]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Nathan - there are a number of F owners who are a lot larger than you (me being one). Size won’t be an issue.

I think since you have a plane in mind, maybe find one or two F owners to help you assess it and prepare you for what to look for. Airplanes of this age group as you have already seen are all over the spectrum when it comes to condition. As a 28 year F model owner, I would certainly share what I know. PM me if you like to talk Fs.


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Also, as I understand it the front seat dimensions of the E and C will be essentially the same as an F.  So if your simply looking to try on an F than a C or E owner can also accommodate your needs.

[eman1200]

where are u located?  then if someone is close to you and owns an F I'm sure they'd be willing to let you check it out.

I flew in @DrBill's E one time.  he's over 6' and the right seat guy was over 6' and I sat in the back (specifically to see what the room was like).  it certainly was acceptable for a short trip, I'd guess I'd probably start getting uncomfortable at about the 2 hour mark but it was fine.  the F is a little stretched in the back seat, I had a 6'4" 250# dude in the back seat of my F and he was surprised at how much room he had.

[Vance Harral]

As others have said, plenty of room for large-frame individuals in a Mooney.  But to be clear, the "small cabin" complaint about Mooneys isn't totally imaginary, for two reasons.  The first is, the seat is closer to the floor of the cabin than other aircraft in the same class, such that your knees are less bent and your legs stretch further to the rudder pedals.  This gives the Mooney more of a sports-car feel. as opposed to an SUV feel.  Some like this, some don't.  Second, the instrument panel is closer to your body.  The upside is it's easier to see and reach everything.  The downside for some is it can "feel" cramped to have the panel closer to your face.

I bring these things up not as a criticism of the design, but just to make you aware so you're not surprised the first time you sit in one.  If you understand the legs-out-in-front and close-instrument-panel aspects of the design, it will be easier to notice you have plenty of head/shoulder/elbow/leg room.

[nathan lively]

Thanks for all the input, its made me more comfortable with the idea of getting a Mooney. To be honest I prefer the sports car feel compared to the SUV feel. So I believe the Mooney will fit me nicely. I'm now digging into the POH for the M20F so I will likely have more questions soon. 

@Marauder I'll likely PM you directly tonight or tomorrow, thanks for your insight! 

@eman1200 I live in Balimtore and I will be hangering my aircraft at KMTN

[gsxrpilot]

This was a full load for my Mooney. The three of us collectively are over 700 lbs. And two of the guys are well over 6 ft tall. The guy in the back is a Bonanza pilot and proclaimed the back seat the most comfortable he'd ever ridden in.

The is in an M20K which is exactly the same interior dimensions of the M20F.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, nathan lively said:

I'm looking to purchase my first aircraft and I have been all over the map on the type I want to buy. I originally was leaning toward Bonanza 35s but its hard to find a '60 (for loan purposes) or newer model that doesn't need a lot of work or is 65K+ I also want to keep the maintenance and insurance cost as low as possible. On top of that I want some speed at an economical rate and the ability to take friends on short trips. The useful load is important to me and the Bonanza fleet is lacking in this area. I have found promising Bos but find out they have a useful load of 800lbs. The wife and I have some friends that weight a decent amount so the 800lbs is about 150lbs short of what I need to carry them and fly for 1.5 with .5 reserve. Though the M20s have a "smaller" cabin, they would allow me hit all of my requirements while only giving up head room in the cabin. I have found a M20F that has a useful load of 1050lbs and is well equipped and in my price range. So the question I have for the group comes from a place where I don't know much about Mooneys, I have yet to sit in one (plan to fix that in the next day or two), and I'm 6ft tall and 180lbs.

- For those of you about my size, do you have any issues being comfortable in the cabin? I also like my rudder peddles really close to me, a trick I learned from flying twins. 

I'm the same size as you and am comfortable, even on long trips.   Like you, I like to have access to pedal travel so I sit close and pull the seat forward.  Not an issue.   I fly an M20J.

4 hours ago, nathan lively said:

- I've seen the M20s have a wet wing but also recall that some have bladders. Does it depend on the model and year?

No, it depends on whether somebody has added bladders rather than fix a leaky tank.    There are nearly religious wars over whether bladders or just resealing the tank is a better way to go.

4 hours ago, nathan lively said:

Best of luck!

 

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, nathan lively said:

- For those of you about my size, do you have any issues being comfortable in the cabin? I also like my rudder peddles really close to me, a trick I learned from flying twins. 

I'm about 6' tall, but it's all in the torso.  Unless you have long legs, if you want the pedals close, the yoke will also be close.  I've learned to sit a bit further back and stretch just a bit if I need to push a pedal hard.  That rarely happens unless I want to do a hard slip.  Regular turn coordination requires almost zero rudder input.

 

4 hours ago, nathan lively said:

- How well do the M20s do on grass fields? Something I would like to have the ability to do.

I was based out of a 2000' grass strip with power lines at one end and my F handled it well even in the 100 degree heat of the summer (stay light).  Short is more of a problem than grass for the older Mooneys, but pilot skill and technique will be the determining factor.

Other questions have already been well covered by others.

Add-on:  Let your mission drive your choice of Mooney, there really is no single best model for every situation.  I recently looked at my flights from last year and 75% of T/O's had at least one passenger, 60% had 3 or more, and just under half had all 4 seats full, so I really need the rear legroom and useful load of the F.  FWIW, the rear seats feel more comfortable and spacious than the front.

Edited January 9, 2019 by skydvrboy
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[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I'm the same size as you and am comfortable, even on long trips.   Like you, I like to have access to pedal travel so I sit close and pull the seat forward.  Not an issue.   I fly an M20J.

No, it depends on whether somebody has added bladders rather than fix a leaky tank.    There are nearly religious wars over whether bladders or just resealing the tank is a better way to go.

Just to clarify, he's talking about fuel bladders, not the other kind

The other reason people claim the Mooney cabin is "small" is ingress and egress.  Although plenty roomy inside the way it is arranged, the lower ceiling height can be challenging for some people getting in and out.  It's not hard, but you have to think about it instead of just hopping in or out of the cabin, and that means advising your passengers beforehand too.

One thing I found was important was to have a sturdy hand strap next to the door and use it.  Mine came off the first time I put my full weight on it.  I repaired it with brass grommets, so that now it will hold my weight and it helps a lot with the exit.

[MARZ]

 

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The other reason people claim the Mooney cabin is "small" is ingress and egress.  Although plenty roomy inside the way it is arranged, the lower ceiling height can be challenging for some people getting in and out.  It's not hard, but you have to think about it instead of just hopping in or out of the cabin, and that means advising your passengers beforehand too.

I step in right foot on the floor - grasp the grab handle and swing in the left leg to the pilot side , lowering the derrière into the seat.  Getting out is less graceful

[steingar]

Personally, I think the OP would be better served with a Skylane.  Big time useful load, can kinda sorta keep ups with a Mooney a little bit, but can easily blast in and out of grass strips.  Says me if turf strips are a big part of the mission a Mooney is a poor choice.  Our airplanes do sit low.  Yeah, lots of pilots have landed lots of Mooneys on lots of turf.  But all those landings are heavily dependent on the pilot and turf, and any could easily go wrong.

[Yetti]

I am 6' 9"  you are shorter than Al Mooney.  You will fit.    I have come to leaning in, knees on passenger seat, then spinning over to the pilots side.   Getting out of the passenger seat is the least gracefull  you will ever be.   Getting out of the pilots seat is not so bad.

[SantosDumont]

If I could buy my first plane again I’d buy an A36. Super easy to get in and out of.  They’re a lot more than $65k though.

Putting 4 adults in a Mooney is doable... but you won’t have very much range, or performance. 

[nathan lively]

2 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

If I could buy my first plane again I’d buy an A36. Super easy to get in and out of.  They’re a lot more than $65k though.

Putting 4 adults in a Mooney is doable... but you won’t have very much range, or performance. 

I'm not to worried about range. The wife can't sit for to long without stretching due to Lupus. With friends, it would only be short trips of 1.5 with .5 reserve. 

@ steingar Yes a skylane would fit the bill, but you would be surprised to learn that most have a 1k lbs useful load or less. They also are really over priced right now, need to spend close to 80k for a good one. 

[nathan lively]

7 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

If I could buy my first plane again I’d buy an A36. Super easy to get in and out of.  They’re a lot more than $65k though.

Putting 4 adults in a Mooney is doable... but you won’t have very much range, or performance. 

They are really nice but I'm trying to stay as close to 40k as possible. Would like to be able to fly the plane I buy without breaking the bank. 

[Yetti]

40K is going to be tough to do for an F.   A c may be better at that price range.   Have 10K in the bank after you get done buying so you can fix things.

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

Putting 4 adults in a Mooney is doable... but you won’t have very much range, or performance. 

I've had 4 adults in my C with room for 34 gals of fuel, or 3 hours plus IFR reserves. Nobody was small, so we didn't fly that long at a stretch. Oh, my C is a short body . . . . . We left from a [dry] grass strip, then fueled to 34 gals, went to KFFA, hopped into the sound for fuel to 34 gal at MQI, then followed clearing weather back to the grass strip at the beach [no fuel, no services, only a runway and 6 tie downs with ropes].

This summer, in late July, I left that same grass strip at the beach after walking it to find the driest location [wet spots had >1" standing water] and went to KOAJ overnight for fuel, and to load up and depart from a hard runway the next morning. Landing at the beach, I almost stopped dead while turning around, but full throttle kept me moving at less than walking speed. Not somewhere I would want to try departing when heavy.

Note for newbies:  A-E are short bodies; the fuselage was extended 10" to make the mid-bodies [F-K] by adding 5" back seat legroom and 5" baggage space--up front, they are the same. Long bodies began with L, then there are the fantastic new models, U & V.

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah you don't want a $40K F. But at $65K you can have a nice one. 

[nathan lively]

Not limited to 40k would just like to stay closer to it. Found a good looking F for 46.5 with a mid time engine and Garmin Avionics but no auto pilot. 

[Marauder]

Not limited to 40k would just like to stay closer to it. Found a good looking F for 46.5 with a mid time engine and Garmin Avionics but no auto pilot. 

If we talk, I can help you understand the pros and cons of the 46.5k F. You’ll hear a lot of us talk about the mission. A 1.5 hour flight hand flown is fine, but if you begin stretching those flights out to 3 or 4 hours, an autopilot is a highly desired requirement.

You should also pay attention to the condition of everything in the plane you are considering. Living with some minor defects is okay, but some missed items can sour you pretty quickly. There are several owners who ended up with significant issues with a recently acquired plane. Don’t be one of those guys.


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[nathan lively]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

If we talk, I can help you understand the pros and cons of the 46.5k F. You’ll hear a lot of us talk about the mission. A 1.5 hour flight hand flown is fine, but if you begin stretching those flights out to 3 or 4 hours, an autopilot is a highly desired requirement.

You should also pay attention to the condition of everything in the plane you are considering. Living with some minor defects is okay, but some missed items can sour you pretty quickly. There are several owners who ended up with significant issues with a recently acquired plane. Don’t be one of those guys.


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Just sent you a PM with the aircraft information