New Panel - Aspen 2000 (goodbye vacuum system)

[StevenL757]

On 11/17/2018 at 12:52 PM, byrdflyr said:

Panel Upgrade Plan 2018 v4.pptx

I have a pretty extensive upgrade planned - which I'm planning to do at Santa Fe Aero Services (Sante Fe, NM).  If you have experience with that shop, I'd like to hear from you.  Good, bad, other?   

I'm going to remove a lot of working instruments (all work fine except for the old Garmin GPS150), so if you're interested in any of these, take a look at the PPT attached -- the items in red below the panel graphic are being removed, and they'll be available starting about Dec. 15-30, 2018, as the work progresses.

I'm going to Aspen glass w/o vacuum system.  You can see the plan in the attached Power Point deck.  To save some money but get all the functionality I wanted, I'm making a couple of compromises. I've decided to upgrade the GNS 530 to WAAS, and the GTX 330 (mode S w/ traffic) to a GTX 345, to get ADS-B in/out with traffic and weather.  I originally planned on an IFD550 (which plugs into the GNS 530 slot with minimal labor, a stroke of genius by Avidyne because upgrading to the GTN 750 requires a lot more labor/cost to install). I'm also very impressed by the Avidyne's features and graphics.  For those needing or just wanting to upgrade from an older GNS 530, I think that's a great way to go, but upgrading my GNS to WAAS is going to be about 4k, and the IFD550 is $20k (both w/o labor), and I think most of what you get with the IFD550 is better/sharper graphics and synthetic vision (which I will get with the Aspen PFD/MFD, so don't need to spend the money on the GPS/NAV/COMM. I'm not aware of any really significant feature the IFD550 has that's missing on a GNS530W.  I know there are some Avidyne bells and whistles that make some functions easier and faster. but the data feed into the Aspens will be the same.  Am I wrong about that? 

My 231k has the 262 conversion, TKS, dual alternators, and I'd like a very capable IFR platform. Any suggestions on this plan are welcome, because there's a lot of variables, and products on the market.

 

A few thoughts...some also highlighted in Paul's @gsxrpilot comments.

1. I guess I'm curious, but given the costs being near-equal, why wouldn't you consider a G500Txi?  Whether you go the Aspen or Garmin route, you should lose your ASI and altimeter

2. Lose the Gizmo panel dock.  Plan to mount your EDM900 in landscape mode in that space.  The angle of sight to the instrument in that position is more than sufficient.  Save the space below your gear handle for a backup attitude indicator

3. Lose the "OAT" indicator on the left, and the "three-pack" column of engine gauges on the right next to the breakers.  Your EDM-900 will display all this.  No need to keep those instruments

4. Suggest not putting the TKS control panel in the center stack, but on the right side above or below the XPDR

5. Additionally, the RAD is a feature only on the EDM-930.  You get an engine alert light in the -900 kit.  (EDIT) Both are required for their respective instruments for a legal installation if the instrument is intended to be Primary

6. Put your StormScope below the Imaginary Standby Attitude Indicator

See if this pic strikes a chord.  This was taken before the side panels, etc. went back in.  Try laying out your panel with some (or all) of these suggestions, and see if you don't wind up with more real estate.

Steve

[ziggysanchez]

I removed the vacuum system from my K model and went all glass. The main thing I wanted to accomplish was to have a capable IFR platform with minimal clutter. If the new Garmin system had been available when I updated I would have seriously considered it over the Aspens. Not because I think the Garmin is more capable (I think they are both very capable systems) but because the Garmin would have reduced the number of components installed in my panel and further reduced the clutter. I’ve been very happy with my panel upgrade.

[Bryan Kahl]

On 11/17/2018 at 9:55 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I was in a very similar position as you a couple of years ago. As the proud owner of a very capable and efficient traveling Mooney, I wanted a rock solid IFR panel to go with it.

And so consequently did a ton of research. The result is I agree with just about all of the responses here. If you're going this far, don't stop, but finish the job.

1. Definitely don't spend money on the 530... but trade it for an IFD540 (not 550). The difference between the Garmin and the Avidyne is huge but the space between the 540 and 550 Avidyne's is not worth the cost IMO. 
2. Hold out for the MAX Aspens. Maybe you are already.
3. Remove the ASI as well. Move the Altimeter to the spot vacated by the ASI. I'd remove the second Nav head (Aspen can display multiple nav sources simultaneously). But if you want to keep the 2nd Nav head, move it up.
4. This movement allows you to mount the JPI-900 horizontally. There is one benefit there, and that is all EGT and CHT values are always displayed instead of cycling. It's nice to know at a glance without waiting for the number to come up in the cycle.

Looks great! There's nothing quite like having a great panel.

 

I would agree with the statement above to go with the IFD540 in this scenario ( or if you decide the IFD540R). If you have any questions please don't hesitate to reach out to our sales team at sales@avidyne.com and we would be more than happy to help answer any questions you have. You can also reach me directly at bkahl@avidyne.com I might not be able to help as much with the sales side of things but if you do decide to go with the IFD my team will make sure your shop has all the support needed for installation. 

Best regards,

Bryan Kahl

Director of Customer Experience

Bkahl@avidyne.com

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Bryan.

Support from vendors is greatly appreciated. The more technical the better...

We also have methods/places for the more commercial activities. Also greatly appreciated, but comes with some traditional basic rules...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bryan Kahl]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard, Bryan.

Support from vendors is greatly appreciated. The more technical the better...

We also have methods/places for the more commercial activities. Also greatly appreciated, but comes with some traditional basic rules...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks! Our goal is to try and provide better support by proactively responding to questions or concerns that come up in forums. While we might not be able to catch and respond to everything that comes up we will absolutely do our best.  

[Bob_Belville]

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think the RAD (or similar redundant warning system) is mandatory with the 930, because it will continue to display MAP and RPM even if the 930's screen goes dark.  I think if you lose the 930 screen, you've got an urgent situation and should land because you lose visibility of critical engine and fuel monitoring, but the RAD will at least give you backup CHT readings, MAP and RPM. I got the impression that the RAD was mandatory if you're relying on the 930 as primary instruments.  I'll probably put it front and center above the Aspens.

Don't think that's right.


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Bryan,

If you haven’t already...

Please add contact info to your signature line...

We get to know you a bit and come looking for you...

 

Win / Win !!!

Best regards,

-a-

Working on a small screen today. I might not be seeing everything...

[byrdflyr]

50 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Don't think that's right.


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
 

You are correct.  Confirmed today that EDM 900 has the option of including a single warning light that can be installed front and center and will illuminate when programmed parameters are exceeded.  The EDM 930 has the RAD, which is also optional, I'm told, but it comes in the box when you buy the unit.  You cannot get the RAD with the EDM 900. 

[carusoam]

One of the times on each flight that it is critical to have three pieces of data available....

1) MP... 29” (NA Engine)

2) RPM...2700rpm (not Eagle or O1)

3) Fuel Flow... 28gph (your FF May be different)

Is right before you hear yourself say ‘air speed alive’ 

You have a few moments to make the go/no go decision and abort the T/O.... if any of the three aren’t at their expected readings....

 

These three are things i’m Looking for to know that flying is just a few moments away... it would be nice if they are NOT located in three different places all around the panel.

Absorbing the data needs to be quick, as you are on the ground and accelerating, and want eyes out the windows at all times....

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[StevenL757]

10 hours ago, byrdflyr said:

You are correct.  Confirmed today that EDM 900 has the option of including a single warning light that can be installed front and center and will illuminate when programmed parameters are exceeded.  The EDM 930 has the RAD, which is also optional, I'm told, but it comes in the box when you buy the unit.  You cannot get the RAD with the EDM 900. 

I stand corrected from my earlier post...edited jus now to prevent confusion.

According to Page 7 of the the 900/930 installation manual, both the RAD and the Engine Alert Light are required for the 930 and 900 respectively if the instrument will be used as Primary.  The 900’s alert light changes color depending on engine condition.  The RAD displays MAP and RPM...even when the primary display becomes INOP.

[ArtVandelay]

I stand corrected from my earlier post...edited jus now to prevent confusion.
According to Page 7 of the the 900/930 installation manual, both the RAD and the Engine Alert Light are required for the 930 and 900 respectively if the instrument will be used as Primary.  The 900’s alert light changes color depending on engine condition.  The RAD displays MAP and RPM...even when the primary display becomes INOP.

My version (rev D) doesn’t have that requirement. Are you sure is says AND and not OR. I have never seen a 900 install with the RAD, just the light.

[StevenL757]

11 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

My version (rev D) doesn’t have that requirement. Are you sure is says AND and not OR. I have never seen a 900 install with the RAD, just the light.

Good point, but the 900 always came with the light, and the 930...the RAD. Mine didn’t require the light either back in June 2016, so it depends on how long ago you installed it, as they may have changed the requirement.  The current manual online definitely says it is required for a 900...page 7, Sec. 6...

https://www.jpinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Install908-Primary_REV-K-4-18-2017jfp.pdf

[Marauder]

Good point, but the 900 always came with the light, and the 930...the RAD. Mine didn’t require the light either back in June 2016, so it depends on how long ago you installed it, as they may have changed the requirement.  The current manual online definitely says it is required for a 900...page 7, Sec. 6...

https://www.jpinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Install908-Primary_REV-K-4-18-2017jfp.pdf

 

When mine was installed the remote alert light was required if it was a certain distance from the center line view. Mine was installed within that distance, but I had the alert light installed anyway.

 

I see now they have a maximum allowable distance for both horizontal and vertical installations.

 

 

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[gsxrpilot]

I like having my EDM-900 where I can see it easily. I find that during all flight time other than on approach (so 95% of the time)... I use the EDM-900 more than any other instrument in the panel.

[ziggysanchez]

18 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I like having my EDM-900 where I can see it easily. I find that during all flight time other than on approach (so 95% of the time)... I use the EDM-900 more than any other instrument in the panel.

Exactly why I put mine where I did. I use the EDM or refer to it more than any other instrument on my panel as well.

[ArtVandelay]

I like having my EDM-900 where I can see it easily. I find that during all flight time other than on approach (so 95% of the time)... I use the EDM-900 more than any other instrument in the panel.

Where is your fuel pressure? That’s required?!

[gsxrpilot]

Where is your fuel pressure? That’s required?!

Nope not on the TSIO360 Continental.

[ArtVandelay]

Nope not on the TSIO360 Continental.

What?! In my opinion, that to me is silly.
I would at least ask JPI if I could add the fuel pressure to the non certified section (where amps, volts...) and therefore logged.
Barring that, I would add a fuel pressure gauge to the panel.

So you don’t have fuel pressure gauges on the Ks and never did?

[gsxrpilot]

What?! In my opinion, that to me is silly.
I would at least ask JPI if I could add the fuel pressure to the non certified section (where amps, volts...) and therefore logged.
Barring that, I would add a fuel pressure gauge to the panel.

So you don’t have fuel pressure gauges on the Ks and never did?

Nope they’ve never had them. The fuel system including pumps are completely different from the Lycomings and fuel pressure isn’t a concern.

We don’t use fuel pumps for takeoff either. We’ve got low boost and high boost but they’re only used in specific situations.

[carusoam]

For the IO550, they use FF as a sign that the fuelP is there..

No FuelP, no FF....

I would still like the extra data point...

Best regards,

-a-

[byrdflyr]

As I was ordering the EDM 900 just yesterday, I had the option to add a fuel pressure sensor ($400 option), and because the K's never had fuel pressure, I opted not to add it.  My sense of it - if you can see GPH, MP, RPM,  . . . and you can hear if the engine is running normally, so I'm not sure what more fuel pressure readings are telling you.  In my M20C, I turned the fuel pump on at idle rpm, and the pressure reading would go from 4 to 6, so I knew the fuel pump was working.  That's all it did for me. 

[carusoam]

Having FF info is for flying...

Having FuelP info is for checking the health of the fuel pump, more of a maintenance piece of data.

Without FF data, you only have FuelP...

With the data being displayed on the JPI... It is probably being stored in its memory as well.... This would be incredibly helpful for solving maintenance issues later on...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Steve W]

My take on the documentation is that the RAD(930) or light(900) should be front and center above the attitude indicator. And so that's where mine is/will be, on the blanking panel where the cluster used to be, new panel someday, just the JPI for now. Also, I don't think I'd consider pushing the 900 over to the right stack. With a 930 or MVP it would be fine, but my I think one of the benefits of the 900 is it can be close in, and it's sort of small and less easy to read than the larger models.

[jackn]

21 hours ago, byrdflyr said:

As I was ordering the EDM 900 just yesterday, I had the option to add a fuel pressure sensor ($400 option), and because the K's never had fuel pressure, I opted not to add it.  My sense of it - if you can see GPH, MP, RPM,  . . . and you can hear if the engine is running normally, so I'm not sure what more fuel pressure readings are telling you.  In my M20C, I turned the fuel pump on at idle rpm, and the pressure reading would go from 4 to 6, so I knew the fuel pump was working.  That's all it did for me. 

I found having FP displayed to be very helpful. Recently performed sid97 fuel flow setup. It’s hard to get good FP settings just doing static run ups. That was a good starting point, but to get actual TO & idle numbers, you need to fly and tweak. Made a big difference. 

[ArtVandelay]

As I was ordering the EDM 900 just yesterday, I had the option to add a fuel pressure sensor ($400 option), and because the K's never had fuel pressure, I opted not to add it.  My sense of it - if you can see GPH, MP, RPM,  . . . and you can hear if the engine is running normally, so I'm not sure what more fuel pressure readings are telling you.  In my M20C, I turned the fuel pump on at idle rpm, and the pressure reading would go from 4 to 6, so I knew the fuel pump was working.  That's all it did for me. 

I’ve read that if running out of fuel or otherwise there is a fuel problem, first indicator is the fuel pressure fluctuates. Might be helpful if running a tank to empty.

I wonder if a clogged fuel injector would cause fuel pressure to increase?