airbuspilot2436 Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 I'm planning to purchase an M20K, is it too soon for someone with 130TT? Thanks for your help! Quote
Ftlausa Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 This type of question gets asked a lot on here. I think It depends upon you and where you are on the learning curve. You have more engine management and flight management to deal with in a high flying turbo. So, you have to ask yourself whether you are going to be behind the plane or not with this move. If not, then go for it and skip a step in aircraft purchases. If you are struggling to keep up with whatever you are flying now, then proceed cautiously and do not skimp on transition training. Quote
Hank Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 Get training from someone who knows turbocharged Mooneys, and practice correct engine management from your first flight together. Join MAPA (Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn, www.mooneypilots.com) and take a weekend PPP course shortly afterwards. You will want your Instrument rating soon, too. There is an article on MAPA's site, hopefully free to non-members, about a student pilot who bought a 231. It was written by his CFI. So it's possible, you just need to commit the time and effort to learn and fly properly. 1 Quote
231flyer Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 I bought my 231 before I had even completed my private ticket (aprox 30 hrs into training) in 1992. I finished my instrument training in my 231 and still own the aircraft. The 231 does have some quirks but is a great instrument platform and inspires confidence in the way it flies. I would absolutely recommend it as your first aircraft...….just make sure you get extensive competent professional training. I am in the process of updating the avionics and passing it on to my 18yr old daughter …….. her first aircraft and instrument trainer. 2 Quote
jackn Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 If you’re the kind of person who ‘act first, think later’, then no. If you’re the person who likes to read, think about what’s happening, and think about what you’re doing, you’ll do ok. Provided the plane is in good shape and you get a competent CFI. 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 No don't do it! Get a 252 instead. All joking aside, the 252 is easier to manage the engine, turbo, etc. than the 231. 5 Quote
kortopates Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 Like Paul says above, the 252 is much easier to manage than than the 231 and was my excuse to upgrade to 231 after my wife got her private license. If I had it to do all over again, I woulod have wished I had just skipped the 231 and gone for the perfection in the 252. 1 Quote
231flyer Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 Agree the 252 is better/easier than the 231. Current market : 231 ~$90k, 252 ~$130k, 231 Rocket ~$150k, Bravo ~$190k, Acclaim ~$450k, Ovation Ultra ~$720k We should expect to get more and better a/c for more money! A reasonable C model can still be acquired for ~$50k Managing the 231 is not difficult, just takes a light touch and extra vigilance on the MP......good habits to develop regardless of a/c. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 Remind me again how an airbuspilot has only 130hrs... Getting a high performance aircraft early on is both a blessing and a curse... It provides great capability. But requires greater responsibility. Don’t accidentally acquire too much airplane... Do intentionally acquire too much airplane. - Get the training and experience to match. - Continue to add to your training and experience every year... Flying high performance aircraft isn’t friendly to low experience mistakes... running out of fuel, and flying VFR into IMC, and botching go arounds can’t be taken lightly... Do the extra training to demonstrate your skills to avoid or exceed these basic challenges... Goal #2... get to the point where avoiding icing and thunderstorms is important to your flight plan... Are you ready? Come aboard with both eyes open. PP thoughts only, not a CFI. Best regards, -a- 3 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, 231flyer said: Current market : 231 ~$90k, 252 ~$130k, 231 Rocket ~$150k, Bravo ~$190k, Acclaim ~$450k, Ovation Ultra ~$720k We should expect to get more and better a/c for more money! A reasonable C model can still be acquired for ~$50k Very true... But the running costs/OpEx don't follow the same linear model. From my research there was actually a dip in the running costs from the 231 to the 252 in reduced maintenance, longer cylinder life, and a better chance the previous owner didn't thrash the engine. Then there was a pretty sizable jump going to Rocket, Bravo and beyond. Something like this... 3 Quote
carusoam Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 The GSXR economics curve...! (Nice work Paul!) A related rates challenge... Inflow over outflow comparison... A reminder that having too much plane compared to your wallet can be unfriendly to achieving your flying dreams... It takes a modicum of financial strength and/or @Raptor05121 inginuity to play this game well. You can do it. You need to want to do it... Expect it to take both more time and more money than you originally planned... sort of a chicken and egg challenge... Some people have gone straight to a greater Mooney... Others have made it a two step process... Starting with an M20C is a great way to get started... then move up as you will really know what you want in a few years... Of course, if your dad flys a Mooney... the decision of what Mooney to get becomes a whole lot easier... The youngest pilot to fly solo around the world, flew his Dad’s Ovation! Go Dad! I admire the dads that share their Mooney... or flight in general... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
larryb Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 The thing about airplane costs, many of them are identical between a C model and a K model. Hanger, subscriptions, airframe maintenance, etc. All no difference. It costs just as much to put a new GTN 750 in a C model as a K model. Over just a few years, the purchase price of the aircraft is just a small portion of the total ownership cost. If your ultimate goal is to own a K model you will save money in the long run if you just by it now. 2 Quote
smccray Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, 231flyer said: Agree the 252 is better/easier than the 231. Current market : 231 ~$90k, 252 ~$130k, 231 Rocket ~$150k, Bravo ~$190k, Acclaim ~$450k, Ovation Ultra ~$720k We should expect to get more and better a/c for more money! A reasonable C model can still be acquired for ~$50k Managing the 231 is not difficult, just takes a light touch and extra vigilance on the MP......good habits to develop regardless of a/c. Your long body numbers look high. Bravos have been trading at Rocket numbers and below. $190K is getting into the range (albeit the extreme low end of the range) of a well equipped FIKI Bravo. $190K will buy a 2000 era low time very well equipped Bravo without a G1000. I don't have first hand knowledge of the Acclaim market, but I would expect the standard Acclaims are in the 300s with the Type Ss in the high 300s low 400s. 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: Very true... But the running costs/OpEx don't follow the same linear model. From my research there was actually a dip in the running costs from the 231 to the 252 in reduced maintenance, longer cylinder life, and a better chance the previous owner didn't thrash the engine. Then there was a pretty sizable jump going to Rocket, Bravo and beyond. Something like this... The right hand side doesn't look quite right to me unless it includes capital cost of the airplane. Quote
MB65E Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 What would you like the answer to be? -Matt Quote
gsxrpilot Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 This is a back of the napkin calculation. But my information is based on my owning an M20C and a 252. I also did a lot of shopping and researching all of the models from C to Bravo. According to several long time Bravo owners who I know personally, the running costs including fuel, maintenance, and engine reserve for the Bravo is significantly more than my 252 and the other newer models go up from there. I'm not including the capital cost of the airplane, but am including the cost of insurance which tracks somewhat to the capital cost. Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 8 hours ago, airbuspilot2436 said: I'm planning to purchase an M20K, is it too soon for someone with 130TT? Call an aircraft insurance broker and get a quote. That will give you an answer based on actuarial data. 1 Quote
Raptor05121 Posted October 12, 2018 Report Posted October 12, 2018 3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Very true... But the running costs/OpEx don't follow the same linear model. From my research there was actually a dip in the running costs from the 231 to the 252 in reduced maintenance, longer cylinder life, and a better chance the previous owner didn't thrash the engine. Then there was a pretty sizable jump going to Rocket, Bravo and beyond. Something like this... How in the world is an M20E/F cheaper to own than a C? 2 Quote
Hank Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said: How in the world is an M20E/F cheaper to own than a C? Es can fly LOP. Cs, not so much . . . . 1 Quote
Niko182 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Very true... But the running costs/OpEx don't follow the same linear model. From my research there was actually a dip in the running costs from the 231 to the 252 in reduced maintenance, longer cylinder life, and a better chance the previous owner didn't thrash the engine. Then there was a pretty sizable jump going to Rocket, Bravo and beyond. Something like this... how is a bravo and a rocket cheaper to own than an ovation? Quote
gsxrpilot Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, Niko182 said: how is a bravo and a rocket cheaper to own than an ovation? Expensive engines, higher hull value equals higher insurance premiums, fuel burn either equal or higher as well. Quote
gsxrpilot Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 30 minutes ago, Hank said: Es can fly LOP. Cs, not so much . . . . Exactly. Quote
smccray Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: Expensive engines, higher hull value equals higher insurance premiums, fuel burn either equal or higher as well. I would expect the ovation to be cheaper to run than the bravo. Lower fuel burn, cheaper engine, less complex (or on par) than the bravo. Capital cost is similar between the two. Acclaim fuel burn (LOP) is less than the bravo as well. Capital cost is of course higher. When I was looking at turbo Mooneys, 150 hrs per year was within spitting distance of bravo cost vs acclaim borrowing the difference in cost. Back of the envelope only- I may be way off. 1 Quote
Niko182 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 45 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: Expensive engines, higher hull value equals higher insurance premiums, fuel burn either equal or higher as well. the ovation burns fuel from 12 to 16 GPH. the bravos and rockets burn around 16 to 21GPH. Ovations have cheaper engines, and the hull values are identical when looked at on controller. 1 Quote
Raptor05121 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 5 hours ago, Hank said: Es can fly LOP. Cs, not so much . . . . How does that counter with the extra 1-2gph more on takeoff for the 20hp? Whats the fuel burn at LOP? My last two tanks were (11 hrs) were right at 9.1 and 9.2 gph, respectively. Now lets count mx on that fuel spider, price of angle valve cylinders, MOH cost... 1 Quote
Niko182 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Posted October 13, 2018 21 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said: How does that counter with the extra 1-2gph more on takeoff for the 20hp? Whats the fuel burn at LOP? My last two tanks were (11 hrs) were right at 9.1 and 9.2 gph, respectively. Now lets count mx on that fuel spider, price of angle valve cylinders, MOH cost... more like a 10hp difference. non of the o and io 360 variants were ever 200 hp. I believe the highest ones were at 192 or 193HP Quote
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