Vacuum Pump replacement

[jezzie]

My vacuum pump failed on my 77 M20J. My plan was to change over to an electric back up when this happened.  The obvious choice would have been to replace with the new Garmin G5. My avionics shop has informed me that for Certified aircraft the G5 is only approved as a primary instrument and cannot be used as a backup. Just wondering if anyone in this group has gone all electric and what did you do once the vaccum pump failed. I do have a G500 now, see picture below. Any help and advice is appreciated.

 

Eldon

[Steve W]

I'm installing an RC Allen 2610 (not the 2610P) and their battery for my backup to my eventual Glass Panel. No Pitot Static or GPS dependency. The previous owner had a Mid Continent electric AI as the backup but a battery for it was almost as much as the RC Allen unit and battery. They didn't buy the lifesaver with built-in battery for some reason.

[smccray]

Was a rumor posted on Beechtalk that the G5 certification was changing to permit use as a backup.  I've seen a number of planes with the G5 as a backup- many have been successful pursuing a 337 rather than relying on the STC.  I don't have a clue if that would be an option in Canada.

Other than the G5 the ESI500 looks like a good option to me.

[thinwing]

The problem is the stc for your G500...It specifys what is an aceptible backup.I pulled my entire vac system and installed a mid continent life saver.If you end up replacing pump ,I have one or two low time pumps available

[carusoam]

Hey Eldon!

Jezzie has come a long way!

Looks like paperwork is the challenge to using a G5... Until that’s is available...

Some people have gone with this... (and others...)

http://www.l3aviationproducts.com/products/esi-500/

Search around here for their logic for using the L3 ESI product...

The Logic why something is allowed or disallowed as a back-up device can be the method that disables one shouldn’t be the same thing that kills the back-up... even if it is a really remote issue like using the same type of battery...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Many of us with glass panels, both G500 and Aspen, have gone with the ESI-500 since it was designed to be a glass backup and it also provides navigation backup. Its really the best option out there for a glass backup and an elegant solution - but its expensive.

 

 

[Igor_U]

I believe SANDIA SAI 340 QUATTRO is certified as standby attitude instrument. Hopefully we get a Pirep from someone having one installed in their Mooney.

 

[FoxMike]

I installed a Quattro several years ago in place of the T&B.  Works OK although I have never had to rely on it.  I had problems with it at first but new software took care of the problem.  Having backup altitude is the feature I use the most.  The KI 300 is a Quattro with more software and a pigtail.

[Marauder]

Trek Lawler came on this site and told us clearly that the G5 was never certified as a backup AI. Despite that, you will find a number of G5s installed as backups to Aspens and Garmin G500s. Reportedly under field approvals.

 

As someone who did get caught up in a cross FSDO disagreements on something installed in my plane, I opted for an approved backup. Both the L-3 ESI-500 (which I have in my plane) and the Sandia Quattro are approved.

 

I love my ESI-500. Beautiful display and I have the Nav enablement and find it a great backup to the Aspen.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Many of us with glass panels, both G500 and Aspen, have gone with the ESI-500 since it was designed to be a glass backup and it also provides navigation backup. Its really the best option out there for a glass backup and an elegant solution - but its expensive.

Ditto.  Depending on what options you choose to go with your ESI-500, (Synthetic Vision, VOR/LOC, and/or MAG-500 dedicated heading input), you could spend anywhere from ~$5500 - $8600 before installation.  Agree with others, though, that it's the nicest and most reliable backup instrument ever for our class of aircraft.  You won't regret it if you decide to go this route.

Steve

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, Steve W said:

I'm installing an RC Allen 2610 (not the 2610P) and their battery for my backup to my eventual Glass Panel. No Pitot Static or GPS dependency. The previous owner had a Mid Continent electric AI as the backup but a battery for it was almost as much as the RC Allen unit and battery. They didn't buy the lifesaver with built-in battery for some reason.

I realize that yours isn't the Lifesaver, but for those that have that one, you can do the Mid-Continent battery for around $60-$70 if your avionics guy will sign off on it. People are pulling out the Lifesavers wanting to go all glass and you can get them for 20-25 cents on the dollar from what people paid.

http://www.csobeech.com/files/MidContinentBattery-9015607.pdf

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Trek Lawler came on this site and told us clearly that the G5 was never certified as a backup AI. Despite that, you will find a number of G5s installed as backups to Aspens and Garmin G500s. Reportedly under field approvals

If the manufacturer, Garmin, who has a financial incentive to get you to buy it, tells you not to use the G5 for a backup I would listen. The FAA is very tough on failure modes for backups. When the chips are down you don't want to lose your primary and your backup due to the same lightning strike or electrical spike.

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

For the Lifesaver, you can do the Mid-Continent battery for around $60-$70 if your avionics guy will sign off on it. People are pulling out the Lifesavers wanting to go all glass and you can get them for 20-25 cents on the dollar from what people paid.

http://www.csobeech.com/files/MidContinentBattery-9015607.pdf

Replacing the battery wouldn't be a problem, it wasn't a lifesaver to begin with, thus the only real option was to replace it with something else, either the Lifesaver or another unit, or buy a special backup battery like the MidContinent MD420 for nearly the same price. And I like the extended battery life for the RC Allen digital anyway. The hardest part is to find someplace to fit the damn battery.

[Jerry 5TJ]

16 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

.....I love my ESI-500. Beautiful display and I have the Nav enablement and find it a great backup .....

 

Sharp looking display.  

I’m looking forward to getting my ESI500 installed.  I bought the Nav option but did not elect to get SV or the magnetometer.  

Question:  Your display shows “GPS1”  Can the ESI500 internally select between two GPS and two VOR sources?  

Or does one need an external hardware switch to connect two GTN devices? 

[Warren]

This might be a silly question...but.  What if you called the G5 primary and the G500 the backup?  Would that get past the paperwork challenge?

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Warren said:

This might be a silly question...but.  What if you called the G5 primary and the G500 the backup?  Would that get past the paperwork challenge?

It would be hard to justify that the G500 PFD (Primary Flight Display) is secondary. I'm sure the G500 STC shows it as primary.

Even if you could slip one past the FSDO, why would you want to? The occasionally lenient FSDO guy that signed off on it won't be the guy trying to get out of IMC with a backup that failed for the exact same reason the primary failed.  Garmin says the G5 is not tested to the same standards that a backup needs to be. They know since they made it. If they could market it at that price point as a certified backup, they would have nearly 100% of that market. Down the road if they decide to go through all of the testing and certification hoops I imagine there will be some design changes necessary - it always works that way. Then they will be justified in selling it for more money and Garmin won't miss that opportunity.

I know the chances aren't great that this would happen, but if everything was to go dark on the panel and you're trying to get you and your family out of IMC with a whiskey compass and maybe an iPad I'm not sure you would think it was worth the $2000-$3000 savings.

[Oldguy]

On 6/25/2018 at 3:31 PM, Igor_U said:

I believe SANDIA SAI 340 QUATTRO is certified as standby attitude instrument. Hopefully we get a Pirep from someone having one installed in their Mooney.

 

I have a Quattro installed in my J to go with the Aspen PFD. Works well and was simple to install. While it does not have all of the features and functions of the ESI-500, the price reflects it. I think it lists for $3595, but can often be found for right around $3000.

[StevenL757]

8 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Question:  Your display shows “GPS1”  Can the ESI500 internally select between two GPS and two VOR sources?  

Or does one need an external hardware switch to connect two GTN devices? 

Jerry - with 2 GTNs installed, the ESI can switch between VOR/LOC and GPS, but requires an external switch to toggle which GTN you wish the ESI to use.

I believe Don K. has a switch like this in his cockpit already for his 750/650 installation interfacing with his ESI.

Steve

[kortopates]

6 hours ago, Warren said:

This might be a silly question...but.  What if you called the G5 primary and the G500 the backup?  Would that get past the paperwork challenge?

yes, silly, its not what "you" call them but their position on the panel and what they control that determines primary.

Edited June 26, 2018 by kortopates

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

Jerry - with 2 GTNs installed, the ESI can switch between VOR/LOC and GPS, but requires an external switch to toggle which GTN you wish the ESI to use.

I believe Don K. has a switch like this in his cockpit already for his 750/650 installation interfacing with his ESI.

Steve

I have a similar setup, and with a switch to select between my #1 and #2 GTNs. Pretty simple to add.  

[gsxrpilot]

I'm one who's got the Aspen and a G5. 337 and done. Of course I've got a lot of other redundancy already including two alternators. And the most important "get out of trouble" feature is speed and range to go somewhere VFR.

The G5 is certified and approved to be the only AI in your panel. If I lose the Aspen, it will be.