300Xl TSO and S-tec 30 w/Alt&GPSS

[Brad1998]

I looking at a 1975 Mooney M20F with a GNC 300XL TSO coulped to a S-tec 30 w/Atl & GPSS stearing. I'm wondering just how capable is a setup like this for IFR flying? Is it a decent setup or to be flying IFR would it need upgraded? Thanks.

[carusoam]

Brad,

real quick...

What is your background in flying?

I may be confused by your turbine avatar?

Do you want to train for the IR in this plane?

How far do you want to take your flying... What is your mission, or typical flight...?

 

Essentially what you have there is moderately good... but the world is moving towards WAAS type approaches....

i’m Not seeing a few important things for IFR flight... like the basis of having two good com radios... I only see one good one and an ancient device....

 

you can read up on the GNC unit...

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/101#overview

Check which types of approaches the GNC is capable of...  include if it has all the options required installed to legally fly approaches...

 

then see how much it will cost you to add waas....

This MSer sells used waas boxes and things.... @Alan Fox

Best regards,

-a-

[Brad1998]

Disregard the Avatar just a fan ( but may need to do away with it ). I would however want to train for IR in it. I talked with the current owner he said the card needs updated but other then that its ready to go. I'm not sure if the 300 can be upgraded to WAAS? And when you say check which types of approaches is capable, what exactly do you mean?

[carusoam]

Get rid of the turbine pic for something more fitting... (mine is my plane and my kids)

You are going to find a lot of people willing to help at MS...

If you know the owner of the plane, that can be pretty helpful as well...

Start reading about instrument training... the important part about flying in the clouds, IMC, is being able to follow instrument procedures to the airport.

There are different types of procedures based upon the equipment mounted in your plane...

1) VOR and a stop watch is a pretty basic approach.   Best to have two VORs to identify intersections...

2) ILS is one of those VOR type things with the added advantage of a glide slope... magical at getting you down to low levels above the ground...

3) ADFs are ancient, DME info has been superseded mostly, by GPS...

4) IFR approved GPS has been around since the early 90s...  not all GPs were approved to this level...

5) Waas based approaches are like the ILS sort of...  gps with a glide slope...

Your IR Training will cover all of this...  you can get the IR without the GPS...

Realistically, most people want to train in the plane they will fly...

One of the limitations I threw on myself was not asking enough questions while buying my first plane... they said it was IFR capable... it had one VOR and an ADF... it was used extensively navigating with an unapproved Loran. Until the Loran was unusable...

Start the conversation with the owner ask him what approaches he likes to fly with it. How does he handle the low ceiling situations? What is his plan B when this box fails or that box fails... review everything on the panel with him...

Save your judgements until after you buy the plane or if you decide not to buy the plane...   you get a free pass to talk to the guy who knows the best about the plane...  he gets a free pass to talk to the guy who is in the market to buy the plane...

you both look pretty well aligned to work with each other... even if it’s just phone calls....

Don’t be afraid to expose what you don’t know... the truth will get you further than trying to hide what you don’t know... people are going to figure out your knowledge level pretty easily...

Don’t miss the opportunity to talk with as many people as possible...

Use the search function...  books that people recommend is pretty good...

Best regards,

-a-

[Brad1998]

The GPS is approved for GPS approaches, I'll talk with the owner some more about approaches he fly's and get more info Thanks alot. 

[carusoam]

Brad,

where are you and the plane at in this wide Mooney World?

-a-

[Brad1998]

The plane is in Louisville KY, I'm Central PA.... KSEG to be exact.

[carusoam]

A really short distance if you had a Mooney! 

Trying to buy a plane, without having a plane, can really hamper the progress....

A real challenge when buying one in TX, 1k’ miles away...

Are you familiar with the buying process people use?

ppIs and such...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I looking at a 1975 Mooney M20F with a GNC 300XL TSO coulped to a S-tec 30 w/Atl & GPSS stearing. I'm wondering just how capable is a setup like this for IFR flying? Is it a decent setup or to be flying IFR would it need upgraded? Thanks.

I’m a 75F owner. The setup you have is a lot more than I had when I first bought my F a few years ago. I had a always busted PC system that had no altitude hold. If the GPS is IFR approach approved, then I would say it is a very capable platform. I never had a GPS unit 2012 when I installed one.




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[Brad1998]

Not for certain, I was thinking go down fly it, if I like then have Aviation Technology do a pre-buy or pre-buy guys. I'd have them possibly sign it off as an inspection? How does it sound?

 

[carusoam]

Brad,

See how long an F lasts...  It could make a great forever plane...

Marauder has had his for a while.

 

If the plane is near needing an annual, that is a great idea...

My last PPI was a full test of everything that was installed in it.  A mechanical comparison to the sales spec sheet.  And a full physical of all the mechanical parts... when that was done, the annual was completed on top of it...

 

There was no plan B once this got started, other than stop and walk away.... at some large expense...

 

All had to work as expected...

I had no window to upgrade until the little beings in my house become big beings in their own house....  

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Brad1998]

While you guys are here anyways, If everything is mechanically sound... 52,900 would be a good price.. no?

[Marauder]

Not for certain, I was thinking go down fly it, if I like then have Aviation Technology do a pre-buy or pre-buy guys. I'd have them possibly sign it off as an inspection? How does it sound?
 

Just make sure they know Mooneys. There can be a few surprises like missing SB 208 or spar corrosion.

Make sure everything in the panel works. You can sink a small fortune into correcting avionics issues.


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[Brad1998]

Just now, Marauder said:

 

Just make sure they know Mooneys. There can be a few surprises like missing SB 208 or spar corrosion.

Make sure everything in the panel works. You can sink a small fortune into correcting avionics issues.


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There specifically have Mooney on the're list, but yes I'll make sure. Thanks

[carusoam]

Have you got a boatload of pics and copies of the logs?

Log reading and summarizing all the major steps is a great way to prep for the PPI...  Finding prop,damage and belly panel replacements can be a bit disheartening....

But this is part of the buying process...

Get a good recomendation regarding who does the PPI... How Mooney familiar they are....

90% of Moonies pass the PPI with little surprises...  you just don’t want to be in the other 10%...

Some surprises are not known to the current owner...  don’t accidentally pick up somebody else’s challenge ...

As far as fair pricing goes... that is up to you to compare other planes in the market... use sites like All American aircraft.  The mooney Flyer calculator. And Lasar lists some Mooneys for sale ....

Best regards,

-a-

[Brad1998]

Unfortunately he does not have the logs electronic, I did get the last 5 annuals that were done and as far as could tell everything looked good.

 

[1964-M20E]

I flew behind an IFR 300 and a Narco MK12.  It can be done with no problems.  Flying behind an IFD540 is much nicer but not necessary.  Buy the most avionics you can afford on a good solid air frame while keeping in mind as time goes on you will wast to replace some of these items not necessarily because of need but desire.

[Jim Peace]

I just upgraded from a Garmin 300XL with the STEC 30 w/ALT and GPSS.

The GPS is a bit clumsy like most other Garmin products.  Just takes a good session or 10 after getting in the books.

I flew across the country many times with it and it was a non event.

its better than most

[Brad1998]

7 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I just upgraded from a Garmin 300XL with the STEC 30 w/ALT and GPSS.

The GPS is a bit clumsy like most other Garmin products.  Just takes a good session or 10 after getting in the books.

I flew across the country many times with it and it was a non event.

its better than most

Does the S-Tec 30 hold GS or is that done manually?

[1964-M20E]

5 minutes ago, Brad1998 said:

Does the S-Tec 30 hold GS or is that done manually?

You have to manually follow glide slope but at least left to right you are good.  It is altitude hold only no auto trim at least the way mine is installed. 

 

 

[Brad1998]

7 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

You have to manually follow glide slope but at least left to right you are good.  It is altitude hold only no auto trim at least the way mine is installed. 

 

 

Ok, that's a big step for me anyways, I wasn't used to flying with any type of autopilot.

[1964-M20E]

Yes AP is real nice I like the STEC 30.  GPSS will be even nicer I do not have it and when a course change is greater than about 10* I will set the DG bug for the new course switch to DG mode for the turn and then back the track mode.  Not a big deal I can live with that.  I just wish Avydine would have built in some GPSS into the CDI output of the 540 so it would anticipate the turn some.

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, Brad1998 said:

Does the S-Tec 30 hold GS or is that done manually?

manually follow a glide slope but its never been an issue as I rarely fly in low IMC if ever.

The altitude hold is as good as anything I have flown in Boeings.  It holds it to the foot smoothly.

[Brad1998]

28 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

The altitude hold is as good as anything I have flown in Boeings.  It holds it to the foot smoothly.

Seriously? I was always skeptic about the S-Tec 30 but y'all got me convinced

[Marauder]

Seriously? I was always skeptic about the S-Tec 30 but y'all got me convinced

The STECs are solid autopilots. I have owned mine since 1998. If they had any issue, it was due to the VOR system. They built in a “soft” mode to help eliminate the VOR swag that you might see. When coupled to GPSS, it is just rock solid.


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