How important is Nav2 to you?

[jaylw314]

50 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

As an amateur pilot with a fairly well equipped instrument platform for an airplane, I don't ever shy away from instrument conditions.  I practice and like to think that my minimums are those printed on the chart/plate.  Because I don't earn a living as a pilot, I don't ever have to fly, but I do look for opportunities to get Actual. 

I've only once, in ten years as an instrument rated pilot, had an opportunity to shoot an approach to minimums. Maybe it's living here in Texas? But we do travel. I've got lots of Actual instrument time, but just never any really low approaches. 

It is definitely living in Texas.  No problems finding minimums around the Pacific NW

[gsxrpilot]

16 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

It is definitely living in Texas.  No problems finding minimums around the Pacific NW

Yeah I've only flown once in your part of the country. It was summer time. I did get some quality Actual IMC between southern Oregon and Seattle, but broke out around 3500.

[kris_adams]

Still running a 155 w/GS as my #2.  Probably sticking with that until something dies.

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

You gonna be able to shoot an approach to 200 and 1/2 with an iPad? or let me ask it a different way.  How low in those clouds are you going to use an iPad to get down?

Of course not.  But with a second Com radio I can get radar vectors to VFR conditions, or at the least to 1000' ceilings where I can use my portable Garmin to shoot an approach.

But if you only have a single Com and your antenna starts to break down, you're just screwed.

[larryb]

For me dual nav com is required. And #2 will be a modern radio and not an old king. The other question is should #2 be a gps or VOR? The first time around I voted for an sl30. The 2nd time around I installed a GTN. I want as much reliability and capability as I can get.

[jetdriven]

29 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Of course not.  But with a second Com radio I can get radar vectors to VFR conditions, or at the least to 1000' ceilings where I can use my portable Garmin to shoot an approach.

But if you only have a single Com and your antenna starts to break down, you're just screwed.

I have a second nav/com. but if I had to choose it would be a second NAV.  ATC is nice but id rather have an ILS to a runway than asking a controller where the nearest VFR is. The iPad is good for that.  in one case you are relying on someone to give you info you hope is good enough. In the other, you proceed normally, ATC clears the airspace.

[Andy95W]

That's a great point about the iPad and finding VFR weather using ADS-B.  I'd forgotten about that.

I'd still rather have the second Com radio.  If nothing else, I can still file and fly IFR with only a single Com radio.

[MB65E]

I would want to have a second Nav. Backing up GPS with an ILS or having both tuned to the same freq. 

I believe GPS outages in the future will be the norm. It happens often at low altitudes in The LA Basen near mostly  aerospace locations and below 1000ft. A fine place to loose a GPS signal. 

A second comm is almost a requirement.  A second nav could be a life saver. 

I wouldn’t plan on shooting an approach to mins in the Mooney. However, I have done it when forcast change. Having a second nav option helps that decision process. 

-Matt

[ArtVandelay]

GTN series and SL30 both have the ability to monitor the standby frequency. I can see the point in not caring about a second COM in this instance but no second NAV? As Paul says, you're one failure from a serious emergency.

A second radio cuts down on the button pushing, ATIS and ground can be dialed 100 miles out and never touched, including when departing. Anything that lowers my workload on arrival when getting bounced around as you start descending into the soup is plus. I can also disable squelch to try to pick up ATIS asap

[bradp]

I’d avoid putting a Narco - no support. King has made it more difficult not impossible to service; so a KX-155 can be a decent choice because they are so plentiful.  

[1964-M20E]

A couple of years ago when I installed the IFD540 my installer tied to steer me to replace my NARCO 812.  Other than  occasionally getting some static from the rear connectors in the tray the NARCO works fine.  Displays were available a few years ago and they might still be if you ever need to replace it.

Use the NARCO for now you can always upgrade it later.

Bottom line you really want a second NAV/COM it is nice and I am always cross referencing my location with my NAV 2.  Give me something ot do when ATC is not talking (screaming) to me.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Why buy a decades old radio? A brand new Icom A220 is less expensive to buy than a used KX155.   

A panel-mounted #2 Nav is so 20th century.   We now routinely carry a tablet and a phone and portable GPS devices as backups.

A clean new installation with new wiring, new coaxial cable and antenna gives a big boost to overall reliability.  

 

[jetdriven]

7 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Why buy a decades old radio? A brand new Icom A220 is less expensive to buy than a used KX155.   

A panel-mounted #2 Nav is so 20th century.   We now routinely carry a tablet and a phone and portable GPS devices as backups.

A clean new installation with new wiring, new coaxial cable and antenna gives a big boost to overall reliability.  

 

when its 500' overcast how are you going to get down without a real IFR certified navigation receiver?

Call ATC and ask for help? 

Or do you just zoom the iPad in and hope you dont hit anything, or do you simply not fly when its 500 OVC or less? 

Friend of mine used to have a Mooney with triple Aspens in it. I pulled the G430W NAV circuit breaker and all 3 aspens lost their position.  Maybe the went Red-X I dont recall.  He pulled out his iPad and thought he would do an approach but trying to navigate within 1/4 mile with an iPad on his lap pretty soon figured out it woulnt work.  I mean if flying a heading and hoping it wouldnt hit anything in the clouds is acceptable navigation thats what it was.  He tuned the #2 NAV to an ILS and flew it to minimums.

Edited April 3, 2018 by jetdriven

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Worries about a back up to the back up?  Hell, when I was learning to fly carrier jets, the only navigation source we had aboard was a TACAN.  For back up, we had GCA, (maybe).  Funny thing is that I never even heard of a TACAN failure, so I never had to sweat one of those situations.  How many NAV/COM failures have people had, except any due to total electrical failure?

BTW, in my Mooney, I have a GX-60, SL-30, NARCO 11, ADF, DME,  Sporty's 400, Garmin 396, plus ADSB-in with iPad.  I feel way over protected.  Oh, and I have my iPhone with me, too.

[jetdriven]

@201er COM board just went bad on his G430, but it could just as easily have been the NAV board.  @cnoe G530W VHF nav board went bad.  Andrew stagg's G430 quit after flying in rain, this is common in Mooneys. Its one box, it was built by men, it can and does fail. Ours has a SANDEL SN3308, that light bulb goes bad, and no #1 NAV, becuase the display is bad, so its not just the G430 that takes out your navigation capability, it may be the HSI or CDI too.  Just have something to fall back on and I dont think an iPad is acceptable.  Try this, put on the hood with a safety pilot, turn off the radios and fly an ILS down to 200' with only the iPad. Report back.

[Godfather]

22 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Worries about a back up to the back up?  Hell, when I was learning to fly carrier jets, the only navigation source we had aboard was a TACAN.  For back up, we had GCA, (maybe).  Funny thing is that I never even heard of a TACAN failure, so I never had to sweat one of those situations.  How many NAV/COM failures have people had, except any due to total electrical failure?

BTW, in my Mooney, I have a GX-60, SL-30, NARCO 11, ADF, DME,  Sporty's 400, Garmin 396, plus ADSB-in with iPad.  I feel way over protected.  Oh, and I have my iPhone with me, too.

Within 750 hrs of flight I lost the com in both my 430w and 530w. It can happen...

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

when its 500' overcast how are you going to get down without a real IFR certified navigation receiver? 

I'll use the iPhone, or iPad or Garmin 660 and fly the approach, that's one (actually, three) ways.   I did so in practice with a safety pilot last year. 

Just for fun, also with a safety pilot, I flew an approach looking at only the G500 synthetic vision.  That worked, too. But, I'll grant you that if my IFR GPS goes south the G500 synthetic vision would fail, too.  SV in the panel-mounted, battery-backed ESI-500 would still be working, though....

Call ATC and ask for help?   Well, yes, I can fly to the nearest airport with an ASR/PAR radar approach.  I did so in practice just last year.   If you fail both my com radios.... I have a handheld with its own external antenna so the radar approach guy can talk me down. 

Or do you just zoom the iPad in and hope you dont hit anything, or do you simply not fly when its 500 OVC or less?  The certified aneroid altimeter is working, right?  Ditto for the blind encoder displaying altitude on my transponder.   I have terrain on the portables so I'll "see" the obstacles and avoid them.  

Friend of mine used to have a Mooney with triple Aspens in it. I pulled the G430W NAV circuit breaker and all 3 aspens lost their position.  Maybe the went Red-X I dont recall.  He pulled out his iPad and thought he would do an approach but trying to navigate within 1/4 mile with an iPad on his lap pretty soon figured out it woulnt work.  I mean if flying a heading and hoping it wouldnt hit anything in the clouds is acceptable navigation thats what it was.  He tuned the #2 NAV to an ILS and flew it to minimums.     I'm not responsible for what your friend can't do. 

 

[Marauder]

Well, I think a working second Nav is worthwhile. On an IFR flight, the GTN went out on most of the ATC frequencies because the newly installed JPI caused background interference and I couldn't hear ATC. At the same time, the Narco decided it was time to pack it in but in a really insidious way. It just got quiet.

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Marauder

[Brandontwalker]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.  First, you can't perform an airborne VOR check without two functioning nav radios.  My home airport does not have a VOR ground check station, so this is important.  Second, many ILS and VOR approaches use intersecting radials to identify the IAF and FAF.  Not saying it can't be done with one nav radio, but the work load would be significantly increased.  Most of my flying is following the magenta line, but I still practice and stay proficient with ILS and VOR approaches just in case the magenta line some day fails.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Brandontwalker

[ArtVandelay]

Well, I think a working second Nav is worthwhile. On an IFR flight, the GTN went out on most of the ATC frequencies because the newly installed JPI caused background interference and I couldn't hear ATC.

What was fix for the JPI squelch problem?

[1964-M20E]

18 minutes ago, Brandontwalker said:

I have a couple of thoughts on this.  First, you can't perform an airborne VOR check without two functioning nav radios.  My home airport does not have a VOR ground check station, so this is important.  Second, many ILS and VOR approaches use intersecting radials to identify the IAF and FAF.  Not saying it can't be done with one nav radio, but the work load would be significantly increased.  Most of my flying is following the magenta line, but I still practice and stay proficient with ILS and VOR approaches just in case the magenta line some day fails.

Unless I' mistaken you can do an airborne VOR check you just need a good known point and VMC to do it.  I used to do it all the time in my E which only had one NAV and one GPS in separate radios.

[Brandontwalker]

Just now, 1964-M20E said:

Unless I' mistaken you can do an airborne VOR check you just need a good known point and VMC to do it.  I used to do it all the time in my E which only had one NAV and one GPS in separate radios.

You may very well be correct.  My memory is hazy on that.  I always set both radios to the same radial.

[jaylw314]

6 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Unless I' mistaken you can do an airborne VOR check you just need a good known point and VMC to do it.  I used to do it all the time in my E which only had one NAV and one GPS in separate radios.

 

4 minutes ago, Brandontwalker said:

You may very well be correct.  My memory is hazy on that.  I always set both radios to the same radial.

@1964-M20E is correct.  Has to be a point on a victor airway identifiable on a sectional, and then record the error from the known radial.

Also, check the Chart Supplement for VOR test locations.  Some use a normal VOR somewhere on the airport, but there are VOT's at some airports that aren't listed on a sectional.

It would make too much sense to cross check your VOR radial to your GPS, but that is not allowed for VOR tests.

Edited April 3, 2018 by jaylw314

[Marauder]

23 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Unless I' mistaken you can do an airborne VOR check you just need a good known point and VMC to do it.  I used to do it all the time in my E which only had one NAV and one GPS in separate radios.

The easiest way is if you have 2 VOR receivers. You can do a VOR to VOR check under 91.171.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.171

[Marauder]

35 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

What was fix for the JPI squelch problem?

Ferrite Ferrule. After showing them the video, JPI sent me one in the mail. It attaches to the lead for the JPI remote indicator. According to some folks I spoke with, it could should have been dealt within in the unit itself by shielding that circuit.