KLN 89B troubleshooting

[SantosDumont]

It seems I only have GPS approaches in my KLN 89B, but the manual very clearly shows on pg 5.5 VOR approaches for KLAX.  Am I missing something?

[donkaye]

41 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

It seems I only have GPS approaches in my KLN 89B, but the manual very clearly shows on pg 5.5 VOR approaches for KLAX.  Am I missing something?

A careful reading of Page 5.5 shows the approach to be a VOR or GPS RWY 25R approach.  That means it is one of the older 1st generation Overlay approaches where a GPS approach was overlaid on a VOR approach.  The FAA did that to get some GPS approaches out there quickly.  A look at the current approaches into KLAX shows that all the Overlay approaches into KLAX  have been eliminated.

This topic was extensively discussed in AC 90-94 dated 12/14/94.  This AC has since been cancelled, since it is highly outdated now.

[SantosDumont]

I guess my point is that I don’t have the VOR overlays. I have a current database. The 5.1.8 page goes on to describe how to do a VOR/DME arc.  If I load up say L45 in APT all that is there is RNAV GPS 34, I’m missing VOR/DME 34

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, SantosDumont said:

I guess my point is that I don’t have the VOR overlays. I have a current database. The 5.1.8 page goes on to describe how to do a VOR/DME arc.  If I load up say L45 in APT all that is there is RNAV GPS 34, I’m missing VOR/DME 34

VOR DME arc approaches are published  and can be flown but they are not supported in the GPS database. 

No GPS overlay approaches were designed for DME arc sectors.  

The  VOR/DME 34 at L45 with its DME arc is an example of an unsupported approach.  

Another is the VOR/DME 15 at KMTN, an approach that is ALL arc.   it too is not in the database in my GTN750.

 I can tune the VOR receiver and hand fly that approach just like I did back in the 1980s but there’s no Magenta arc depicted.  

 

[jetdriven]

Interesting. The EFD ILS17R approach with Dme arc is depicted and it flies it. 

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

I guess my point is that I don’t have the VOR overlays. I have a current database. The 5.1.8 page goes on to describe how to do a VOR/DME arc.  If I load up say L45 in APT all that is there is RNAV GPS 34, I’m missing VOR/DME 34

For an approach to be an Overlay and be in the GPS database, its title must say VOR RWY(XX) OR GPS RNY (XX).  Most, if not all of them, are gone.  However, the KLN90B had the capability to fly DME ARCS.  For example, the VOR-A Approach into KWVI.  It was in my KLN90B database and the arc was displayed, could be intercepted, and could be flown on the AP.  It is also in the GTN 750 with the ARC and can be flown on the AP.

[SantosDumont]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

VOR DME arc approaches are published  and can be flown but they are not supported in the GPS database. 

No GPS overlay approaches were designed for DME arc sectors.  

 

I’m really confused by this page from the manual then. 

[donkaye]

19 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

I’m really confused by this page from the manual then. 

As a test, see if the Watsonville VOR A Approach is in your database.  If it is, then it will have a DME ARC IAF that can be flown with the KLN 89B.  The KLN90B and GTNs do.  Apparently not all DME ARC approaches are in GPS databases.  I'm not sure what the current criteria is for them to be in a database or where to find that information.  Maybe someone else does.

[carusoam]

Things to keep in mind regarding the aging BK GPSi... i for plural.....

Compared to a GTN or KSN even....

The BK is GPS only and has no skill to receive actual VOR, ILS, or DME or ADF signals.

It has the skill and is accepted (in many situations) to replace these devices digitally.  But is not an exact, Do the same thing kind of replacement, especially when it comes to DME's straight line distances and some signal altering interference caused by mountains and things...

All of The documentation for the kln89 and 90B is written decades ago, at the same time The GPS overlay approaches were being wheeled out.... it is nice that the English isn't in tech speak, that was new for its time...

This is the time when pilots were really understanding the technical oddities of VOR signals and how approaches were designed, tested and approved around the oddities... following a VOR course can show a scalloped pattern as the plane negotiates it’s way towards the target way point.  You will see the magenta line is perfectly straight on the iPad. But the track of the plane may be scalloped acceptably close to the line...

Using a GPS in place of a VOR/ILS/DME/ADF used to(?) require the approach to indicate use of the GPS to be acceptable...  or you might find that a waypoint for the missed approach is based on an ADF that might not be in the GPS database.... everything is great until executing the missed...

We had a thread around here, not so long ago, where people were searching for DME arcs near their Home drome in the NE....  There are very few left around anymore...

They are slowly becoming relics of an ancient Jedi Religion....

As 2020 approaches... nearly everyone will have a WAAS GPS on board....

If the approach is in your current (as in up to date) panel mounted navigator's database... a sign that it is legal to use.

If the approach is not in your current panel mounted navigator's current database... It is much harder to use.

In the case of a DME arc approach...  the GPS version of the approach is based on a lot of individual data points.  The organization in charge of updating the digital database must have done that at least once....  It is interesting that the KLN89 is able to advance to the next point on the arc automatically without a GPSS allowing it to do so...

It gets harder to use a 20 year old nav device that was born at the same time the IFR procedures were being written for them.  The KLN89 is one of the first GPSi that was approach capable.... it had the waypoints of the approach plates in its database.

It also comes with procedures to test the accuracy of the GPS signal prior to executing the approach with it.

A blue light on your panel... while using the GPS?

It also used to have a community that would discuss how to fly legally without purchasing so many expensive database updates....

Being a CB has also evolved...  they have gone from not having a GPS, to not having to update the database so often, to having used  WAAS gps with color screens.....

Very important note: I am only a PP. Not IFR current for years... this post is based on my aged memories of using a KLN90B in my O...

Hope that helps explain the challenges of equipment evolution...

next steps...review the nearby approach plate with DME arc to see if it mentions anything about using a GPS requirement or not... then see if the approach is in the KLN database....

First problem I see... my only access to my KLN data is by turning on my GPS at the airport miles away... what a pain!  

Another thing that has become obvious over time... the databases have gotten larger.  The whole country no longer fits on one database that can be held in the KLN.  BK now splits in in half to accommodate...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

4 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

I’m really confused by this page from the manual then. 

 

You’re right. I recall asking why the VOR DME arc approaches were not supported at a MAPA PPP:  I must have recalled wrong.  I’ll look for the TERPS criteria. 

[carusoam]

BK has some nice people in their customer service group.

I bet you could call and they will give a decent answer to this tech question.

Their database group is called wingman services...

It may take a day or two...

Best regards,

-a-

[SantosDumont]

Well I pay for the subscription... might as well call tech support. 

[SantosDumont]

Here’s what tech support said:

Back when the KLN 89B was released.  The GPS Approaches were almost all "Overlays" of different types of VOR or NDB, Non-Precision Approaches.

As time went by, the new RNAV GPS Approaches were released.  They took the place of the "Overlay" approaches.  The Overlay approaches were decommissioned for use with GPS.

The only Non-precision approaches included in the KLN 89B database are the ones specified on the Approach Plate as (RNAV).

The Pilot's Guide was never revised.  There may be some isolated cases still in existence, where they had not been replaced by RNAV Type.
 

[carusoam]

Santos,

have you had a chance to load KLN89 approaches while in the air yet?

1) If your memory is good, read the manual, and proceed...

2) If your memory is not so strong, take good notes to use while flying...

3) If expecting to use logic to determine the next steps, there will be one step or two that you may not be able to get through... like how to get the cursor to show up in the right place...

Could be just my, crummy aging memory experience...

The KLNs are no iPhone.... 

Best regards,

-a-

[SantosDumont]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

Santos,

have you had a chance to load KLN89 approaches while in the air yet?

1) If your memory is good, read the manual, and proceed...

2) If your memory is not so strong, take good notes to use while flying...

3) If expecting to use logic to determine the next steps, there will be one step or two that you may not be able to get through... like how to get the cursor to show up in the right place...

Could be just my, crummy aging memory experience...

The KLNs are no iPhone.... 

Best regards,

-a-

Oh yeah plenty. Taking my IR check ride next week. Loading the approaches is not hard, I was just wondering where the VOR approaches were so I could use the waypoints.