Should I get a Hartzell Top prop for my J?

[Cody Stallings]

2 hours ago, Jeev said:

Thanks Cody!  Yeah it seemed really high.  I asked about getting my prop back so I could sell it and recoup some $ and they said $10,300 is the exchange price!!!! I gave them my credit card to order the blades already but can back out.  Do you think $6100 for the blades is also high? What about $2300 for an overhaul?  

Very High.

That Prop an STC is just south of $9K.

Thats you keeping all of your parts.

 

Their O/H Price is pretty well on par, an the price of the Blades is about right.

You have to keep in mind, everything McCauley is higher than Hartzell.

I can double check those blade prices in the morning.

But $3k per copy should be in the ballpark.

 

[jetdriven]

51 minutes ago, Jeev said:

To be fair they are not holding my prop hostage yet.  I will call them I’m the morning see if they do the right thing.  I don’t want to put negitive info on the web unless it’s justified.  I will definitely post an update tomorrow with the exact details. Thank you for the advise and yes everything will be in a credit card.  

I don’t get it. My prop shop is stripping my prop down repainting and resealing it and reassembling it all for $750. So how does tearing something down which takes about an hour and measuring everything which might take another hour costing 1000 bucks. That alone makes me suspect

[Cody Stallings]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I don’t get it. My prop shop is stripping my prop down repainting and resealing it and reassembling it all for $750. So how does tearing something down which takes about an hour and measuring everything which might take another hour costing 1000 bucks. That alone makes me suspect

Highly Suspect IMO.

Tear down an inspection in my shop don’t cost anything.

couple hrs is all it takes

What also bothers me, Selling the new Prop at list +, then Charging him to take his old parts off of his hands.

 

The way I was brought up in this biz, sell the new Prop discounted, then pay $200-$750 per serialized part.

In that Prop there are 5 Serial numbered parts. Blades, Blade Bearings, Hub.

That is where the Propeller Shop Makes Money.

If the blades are really under minimum, then you have a hub that is potentially worth up to $750 if it’s in good shape(No Repair Sleeves, No over sized studs, minimal blade socket wear).

Now the bearings an Actuating Components.

Those together are going to be worth another $500-$750 if the Propeller is oil-filled an the parts are in good shape.

 

So you make the sale, get the customer back in the air without having a bad experience.

Then you work these same parts through the serviceable Market.

Are you going to make tons of money this way? Hell no, Not all on one transaction  but you can pay the bills an keep moving on.

Being in the Propeller Biz, you have all types of options moving said parts, the typical customer doesn’t.

So that why they should cut a break on the front end.

Not doing so is Double Dipping the way I see it.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Cody Stallings

[Jeev]

34 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

Highly Suspect IMO.

Tear down an inspection in my shop don’t cost anything.

couple hrs is all it takes

What also bothers me, Selling the new Prop at list +, then Charging him to take his old parts off of his hands.

 

The way I was brought up in this biz, sell the new Prop discounted, then pay $200-$750 per serialized part.

In that Prop there are 5 Serial numbered parts. Blades, Blade Bearings, Hub.

That is where the Propeller Shop Makes Money.

If the blades are really under minimum, then you have a hub that is potentially worth up to $750 if it’s in good shape(No Repair Sleeves, No over sized studs, minimal blade socket wear).

Now the bearings an Actuating Components.

Those together are going to be worth another $500-$750 if the Propeller is oil-filled an the parts are in good shape.

 

So you make the sale, get the customer back in the air without having a bad experience.

Then you work these same parts through the serviceable Market.

Are you going to make tons of money this way? Hell no, Not all on one transaction  but you can pay the bills an keep moving on.

Being in the Propeller Biz, you have all types of options moving said parts, the typical customer doesn’t.

So that why they are cut a break on the front end.

Cody you have my business going forward, thank you for your honest insight into the prop biz.  I regret not doing my research and just sending it to you in the 1st place and now it looks like I’ll pay for it. 

I make my living selling medical devices and can often make more money in the short term by being sleazy and NOT doing the right thing.  I made a decision early in my career to do what is right by being honest and open with my clients and patients. Because of that I have come out way ahead while others have failed by taking the easy sleazy road.  In this situation I am definitely being overcharged to pad pockets or perhaps pay for large overhead however I take at least partial blame.  I have a lot going on now and didn’t take the time to properly vet the situation.  I was expecting a $1500-2000 easy seal job and when i was hit with the blades being “out of spec “ I just said well “it’s and airplane, it happens” and gave them the credit card for the blades.  After a few days I started thinking about it and posted here cause something didn’t feel right.

As I add everything up including downtime (I need the mooney back before Christmas), shipping ect I may be stuck just paying up and saying lesson learned, I will figure it out tomorrow.  What I do know is I won’t be sending any props to these guys again. Best case they are overly expensive and worst case they fudged the numbers. 

I really want to thank everyone for your time and insight here.  I will post updates as I have then so at the very least this can help the next guy... cheers everyone 

[Raptor05121]

I hope I never have to spend money on my prop, but if I did, Cody has it without a doubt. Talk about transparent and helpful, way to go, Cody.

Jeev, I hope you are able to save some $$$ here.

[jetdriven]

The prop shop on our home field, KLVJ,  does this so regularly, that San Antonio Propeller sends a truck over to Houston, weekly, to get props.  I did call them about resealing  mine, he specified that since it was 15 years old and 1400 hours since new, it "likely wont pass overhaul" "will need a blade maybe two", and cannot reseal since "Mccauley wont let him nor will the FAA".  Direct quotes here, from the owner of the shop.  He said an overhaul was 2300$ but usually goes to 5-7K, "you just never know".  I wanted to tell him GFY, but instead I shared the "new name" of the prop shop with San Antonio and what was said. Kenny said, yes, same old game and new name. A repair station can do what they want, and those guys choose to rip people off.

I got my prop back from SAT for 750$.  fresh paint, resealed, good for another run. This is twice they've had it. the only thing that keeps them from calling it overhauled is the blades werent ground down to an approved undersize, and no NDT was performed on the hub.  I'm fine with that.

[Guest]

I keep reading about blade grinding at overhaul.  Does someone have a copy of the overhaul manual which calls out this procedure, our local shop doesn’t use grinding.

Clarence

[Cody Stallings]

On 12/5/2017 at 6:55 PM, M20Doc said:

I keep reading about blade grinding at overhaul.  Does someone have a copy of the overhaul manual which calls out this procedure, our local shop doesn’t use grinding.

Clarence

The Hartzell 133C Manuel 

And McCauley BOM 100 Manuel

Should be able to look them up online.

If your shop doesn’t grind, then that Shop doesn’t O/H Propellers.

Grinding the Blades is one of the major things in the O/H Process 

[Shadrach]

36 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

The Hartzell 133C Manuel 

And McCauley BOM 100 Manuel

Should be able to look them up online.

If your shop doesn’t grind, then that Shop doesn’t O/H Propellers.

Grinding the Blades is one of the major things in the O/H Process 

My local shop told me that there is more to grinding than just cleaning up and contouring leading and trailing edges. He said that grinding also increases the metals resistance to fatigue. Could you expound?

[Cody Stallings]

58 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

My local shop told me that there is more to grinding than just cleaning up and contouring leading and trailing edges. He said that grinding also increases the metals resistance to fatigue. Could you expound?

Short of removing stress risers(which are on the surface layers), I can’t see where making the blade thinner would aid in its resistance to Fatigue.

That would be a question for the Shop your talking about

Edited December 7, 2017 by Cody Stallings

[Jeev]

Hey all!! I realized I never posted a conclusion on this and I hate it when people do that ...  Regarding the prop I ended up taking the hit with new blades and an overhauled hub that that ran me around $9k.  I have owned and maintained my Money now for 7 years and I really do know better and got burned by not spending enough energy and time with it.  My awesome excuse is that I have a new baby and we have been busy with her but now feel terrible for depleting her college fund on an expensive prop, shhhh she is too young to remember .  This won't be my last plane and definitely not my last prop that needs work so I thank you all for pointing me in the right direction for next time.  Thank you again Cody for your HONEST industry knowledge! 

I still don't have my Mooney back yet thought.  Lycoming called me and said based the serial number of the factory reman IO360 I bought from them a few years ago they may have installed some incorrect parts in my engine.  Yep we pulled a cylinder as directed by Lycoming and there are plugs where oil nozzles should be so we had to pull the engine and send it back.  The only good news is that they are doing a full factory teardown and IRAN on my 400hr engine at their cost and even paying my A&P's labor for removal and reinstall.  Hopefully I will get the equivalent of an overhaul but that is yet to be seen.  The engine had been running good for the last 400hrs but always just a little hotter than my last one, manageable temps but some extra effort with cowl flaps and fuel was needed to keep temps where I like them.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Jeev

[xcrmckenna]

Wow!!!
Super High new Prop Quote!
Not supposed to make Christmas Bonus off of one transaction.
I can get that Propeller for much cheaper.
 
I also believe you should get a second opinion on your McCauley blades

Is there much resale value for a used prop? I have an original two blade McCauley on my 77’ 201. Not sure the exact model and just about 550 hours since overhaul. I can get exact numbers and the model number.

I’m just contemplating about getting a new top prop or a three blade MT and thought if I could sell my prop and hub now vs tossing them in the garbage when they don’t pass spects. It might be worth it and then the plane won’t be AOG while I’m waiting on the new one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Nice follow-up, Jeev!

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

Coupe of grand is the going rate for a used flying C214

[xcrmckenna]

Looking at the logs it’s a C212.


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[N6758N]

10 hours ago, Jeev said:

ycoming called me and said based the serial number of the factory reman IO360 I bought from them a few years ago they may have installed some incorrect parts in my engine.  Yep we pulled a cylinder as directed by Lycoming and there are plugs where oil nozzles should be so we had to pull the engine and send it back.

Dang, that sucks! Same thing happened to @jetdriven I believe, except he had to figure it out instead of Lycoming calling him! 

[1964-M20E]

12 hours ago, Jeev said:

Hey all!! I realized I never posted a conclusion on this and I hate it when people do that ...  Regarding the prop I ended up taking the hit with new blades and an overhauled hub that that ran me around $9k.  I have owned and maintained my Money now for 7 years and I really do know better and got burned by not spending enough energy and time with it.  My awesome excuse is that I have a new baby and we have been busy with her but now feel terrible for depleting her college fund on an expensive prop, shhhh she is too young to remember .  This won't be my last plane and definitely not my last prop that needs work so I thank you all for pointing me in the right direction for next time.  Thank you again Cody for your HONEST industry knowledge! 

I still don't have my Mooney back yet thought.  Lycoming called me and said based the serial number of the factory reman IO360 I bought from them a few years ago they may have installed some incorrect parts in my engine.  Yep we pulled a cylinder as directed by Lycoming and there are plugs where oil nozzles should be so we had to pull the engine and send it back.  The only good news is that they are doing a full factory teardown and IRAN on my 400hr engine at their cost and even paying my A&P's labor for removal and reinstall.  Hopefully I will get the equivalent of an overhaul but that is yet to be seen.  The engine had been running good for the last 400hrs but always just a little hotter than my last one, manageable temps but some extra effort with cowl flaps and fuel was needed to keep temps where I like them.

That sucks about the engine.  At least they are making it good except for not having your plane for a few weeks.

Seems to me Lycoming should just send you a new factory overhauled engine you MX replace it and sent the old on back.

[Jeev]

On 1/29/2018 at 6:31 AM, 1964-M20E said:

That sucks about the engine.  At least they are making it good except for not having your plane for a few weeks.

Seems to me Lycoming should just send you a new factory overhauled engine you MX replace it and sent the old on back.

 

On 1/29/2018 at 6:31 AM, 1964-M20E said:

That sucks about the engine.  At least they are making it good except for not having your plane for a few weeks.

Seems to me Lycoming should just send you a new factory overhauled engine you MX replace it and sent the old on back.

Yeah I tried that but Lycoming said sorry but no.  Oh well should be flying in a few days!!

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jeev