67F my landing technique as a student pilot

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

After having a very rough start with a gaggle of squawks I have finally been flying N9623M regularly.  I appreciate all your guy's help in the beginning.  She is consuming money at a lower and lower rate now and it is a blast although tricky to slow down at first.

I have about 12 dual and 12 solo in it so far

Best landings were after reading this forum this is how I have been landing it:

Descent:  Cowl flaps closed, Lower manifold to 16" then prop to 19" manifold will rise to 19 and you get 19 squared. Then lean and descend at about 400-500 fpm at about 150-160 mph.  I lean to keep cht at 300F got this from an article, I'll get the name later and amend post.  

Down wind:  MP 17"  Prop Full, Mix Full, Gear Down, Two pumps of flaps (my flaps are exactly 4 pumps to full), this gets 100 mph.

Base:  Before I turn base I fly past abeam for 36 seconds this gets me set up for a 1 mile final.  Then I lower MP to 12" add one pump and turn base aiming for 700 FPM loss in the turn.  Then I level out and trim to 90MPH

Final:  When I turn final I again try to lose 700 FPM in the turn so that I do not load the wings at this slow airspeed.  Then I level out and have to pull almost all the power full flaps and I trim out to 80-85 mph depending on gust and trim all the way back ( I used to not do this and the flair was heavy!).  Pull power all out when runway is assured and the result is in the video.  Instructor got freaked out at 80, I told him I had done a bunch, he was worried about a stall so I raised it to 85 but it floats with a higher risk of porpoise.  

I was lost with final at 100 mph and float city before I came back to this forum.  Now I land shorter than alot of the 172s.  I have about 50-60 landings in the plane.  I have done a ton of go-arounds and touch and goes, trim before adding power in touch and go or get ready to bench press your own weight, lol!  

Any tips or advice is appreciated,  these numbers are still raw except on down wind those are pretty good.  The power settings in the rest may need more dialing in.  

Adam 

 

Mooney_Landing_BXK_2.MOV

Edited October 24, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch

[carusoam]

Good questions to ask, Adam!

I thought the instructor was supposed to be the guy with the mooney knowledge...?

17" Of MP, isn't that a lot of power still...

85 on final? Isn't that a lot of speed still...

targeting 700fpm descent rate can be kind of high. If you are still high on final,  cutting the throttle to descend faster can lead to a descent rate of 1000 fpm.  Arresting a 1000 fpm descent from short final is not really easy.  It won't be described as a stabilized approach....

Where did you get the 36 seconds of time to turn base?  Most people simplify that to a 45° angle and make adjustments from there...

For an interesting explanation of speed, flap setting and power setting regarding the landing procedure... Don Kaye has put together an interesting explanation for it for Mooneys.

 

Some people purchase transition training from a knowledgeable Mooney CFI...

 

PP thoughts only, I have bought the books and got the training, and still ask the same questions....

My O uses kias in place of mphias... at 85, I’ll be floating to the end of the runway....

Best regards,

-a-

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

17 Inches gives me 100 Mph downwind with gear and half flaps.  

I will have to buy Don Kayes video, everyone raves about it.  I wanted to buy it but you gotta wait for a dvd in the Mail! I want instant gratification!  

9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Good questions to ask, Adam!

I thought the instructor was supposed to be the guy with the mooney knowledge...?

17" Of MP, isn't that a lot of power still...

85 on final? Isn't that a lot of speed still...

targeting 700fpm descent rate can be kind of high. If you are still high on final,  cutting the throttle to descend faster can lead to a descent rate of 1000 fpm.  Arresting a 1000 fpm descent from short final is not really easy.  It won't be described as a stabilized approach....

 

For an interesting explanation of speed, flap setting and power setting regarding the landing procedure... Don Kaye has put together an interesting explanation for it for Mooneys.

 

Some people purchase transition training from a knowledgeable Mooney CFI...

 

PP thoughts only, I have bought the books and got the training, and still ask the same questions....

My O uses kias in place of mphias... at 85, I’ll be floating to the end of the runway....

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

What is your TPA at your home field?

Mine is about 1100’agl.  Things start to go awry at 1200’agl.  Because the excess energy shows up at the end.

The O uses 90, 80, 70... final approach is a speed and configuration calculated to meet the requirements. Don has a chart to calculate that quickly. Adjusted for Weight, wind, flaps, and runway...

I used the same numbers for my C, but they were in mph.  

Some Discussions around here define that final approach speed in terms of a multiplier times stall speed.

1.3, 1.2, 1.1 X stall speed... use caution here, I’m not familiar, and not a CFI.... search around MS as it has been explained by people that are familiar and may be CFIs... 

There was a discussion recently where I asked what descent rate people were using ordinarily... I think Hank offered the number he uses with his C. It was much tamer than the descent rate you gave.

Some of this might come from close in patterns, and the ability to glide, engine out, to the runway...

Mooneys are good gliders compared to many other planes that other CFIs have used...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[TheTurtle]

Wow thats a lot of fiddling with stuff and remembering stuff.

36 seconds on downwind?  Do you use a stopwatch?  You aint doing it right if you arent turning using the square root of pi as your outer radius. 

Its not a space shuttle  just land the damn thing

[Yetti]

Landing looks good, not too much to fix.

I do that U turn to land that people were talking about was safer this summer.

15" of throttle in the pattern.  I was taught not to touch the other two levers the whole decent nor nothing.

Wheels down abeam the numbers.   Some times I am fast.  Just pull up slightly to get under gear speed.  (I noticed on my FR the Mooney CFI kept suggesting I needed to slow down)

Start the U turn to final.  Flaps come down to half depending on winds and how the set up was.  Sometimes in the turn sometimes on final.

The manual says "no turns under 90mph without flaps"

throttle as required to make a good landing.

It is a more consistent bleeding off of energy.   The turn uses up a bunch of the energy.

 

[jpindy]

I will stay away of the 36 seconds because of wind factors. You can imagine the difference of ground tracks from wind calm and 20 kts tailwind conditions. You may not be able to reach the runway if you get a sudden power loss when turning base with 36 seconds and 20 kts tailwind. The 20 kts will become crosswind and headwind trying to keeping you away of the runway. I suggest you practice in strong wind conditions.

[N201MKTurbo]

My only suggestion would be to put the flaps all down at once. I've never found any reason to do it in stages. That doesn't apply to all airplanes. 

I put the gear down when I turn down wind 15 in. Abeam the numbers all flaps and power to the top of the yellow. When the numbers are 45 degrees behind my left shoulder I turn base. I keep the airspeed needle horizontal. 

[Bob - S50]

Nice landing!

Show your instructor the stall speed chart in your POH.  I have a J, but if I were landing with 400# of pilots and 100# (16 gallons) of gas, I'd be using 66 KIAS (76 mph) on final so your 80 sounds pretty good.

Personally I use the TLAR method (That Looks About Right) for pattern work.  Try not to become too mechanical.  Lots can change like winds, pattern altitude, weight, and traffic for example.  It's good to have a starting point for power settings, but if the plane isn't doing what you want then deviate from those settings to get what you want.

For example:

Strong tailwind at altitude/headwind on landing?  Turn base early.

Tailwind for landing?  Turn base late.

Strong crosswind?  Fly wider/tighter than normal downwind to compensate.

Slow traffic in front of you?  Turn base later, carry more power, fly a shallower descent.

Enjoy.

[Marauder]

One suggestion is to make a speed card (the attached one is one I use for IFR flying) and use this as a starting point. It is particularly helpful if you post this card directly in front of the co-pilot seat  where the instructor can see it clearly. I started doing this when flying with CFIIs on IPCs who were absolutely convinced they knew how to fly a vintage Mooney with low gear speeds.

As Bob mentioned, the variables (wind, hotter/colder temps) will require you to fine tune these power settings to achieve the proper speed for landing. And the speed for landing does vary a bit based on weight, winds, etc. One thing that you mentioned that does come into play is the final trimming. When I first bought my Mooney, I had only manual trim. This resulted in a fairly active right hand trimming out the forces. And an even more active right hand trimming them out on a go around. 

Eventually the sight picture will become more recognizable and you will know whether any adjustments are needed.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Personally I use the TLAR method (That Looks About Right) for pattern work.  Try not to become too mechanical.  Lots can change like winds, pattern altitude, weight, and traffic for example.  It's good to have a starting point for power settings, but if the plane isn't doing what you want then deviate from those settings to get what you want.

+1  While I think landings should be done consistently when you're first learning, in your further practice (and real life VFR), your landings will be done differently because there are so many variables in VFR flying.  For IFR, sure, approaches should be done with the same settings all the time, but you need to develop adaptability and flexibility in VFR pattern work.  Hitting numbers and positions precisely in the pattern is probably not important (except on final and touchdown), and I think getting excessively focused on being precise on downwind and base can lead to inflexibility

[DXB]

Great input above.   I'd second that 85mph is usually way too fast over the threshold- get out of the habit now because you'll get burned eventually - e.g.  by a short field plus a sudden shift to a tailwind.  Fighting to get stable at least a bit under 80  before crossing the fence will serve you great in most conditions- 75 works great, even fully loaded.  At full flaps,  70 at the threshold still leaves a decent safety margin if no gusts. I'll only maintain  80 all the way to the threshold intentionally if strong gusts and/or using half flaps.  But for a shorter field (<3000ft), even a tad over 80 at the threshold is my absolute trigger for an immediate go around.  I have a tire bald spot now from having to brake hard near the end of a 2400ft strip as a reminder of my rule -  it could have been much worse.  

[Shadrach]

Nice looking bird!  From viewing the video, it appears that you handle the aircraft well. Early on you should be flying nice stable approaches with good airspeed control and proper flare touching down with the wing nearly stalled, but enough elevator authority to hold the nose off.  That appears to be what's happening.  I do not believe you were at 85mph in any of the footage of this video.  I too have a 67F.  My plane weighs 1688lbs dry; with 240lbs of fuel (40gal) of fuel, 25 lbs of crap in the back and two 190lb men, 85mph would be 1.5XVso at that weight (2333lbs).  That's pretty fast for final.  Good to have extra margin, but excess speed has bitten many Mooney pilots.  You might tactfully ask your instructor what he thinks is reasonable in terms of margin...and then ask him to calculate it with you.  Just using MGW numbers is not optimal because 5mph matters in a Mooney (especially in ground effect). 

I think your procedure is a bit on the busy side, but I am betting as you gain comfort you will simplify.

If descending and ascending in cruise, I use 300fpm for both unless otherwise asked/instructed by ATC. Full power in climb and cruise power in descent.  My VFR hard numbers are 120MPH on downwind or 2.5 miles out so that I can drop the gear abeam the numbers or at 2 miles if flying a non standard pattern.  Flaps are as needed during the approach.  Contrary to popular belief, they do provide significant drag (going power off abeam the numbers to landing with and without flaps will demonstrate the difference nicely).  For normal ops I want to be at 1.2 Vso by short final (1.3 is fine for long runways) and slowing as I cross the threshold. For short fields (<2000ft) I want to cross the threshold in ground effect at 1.1Vso.  

Nice job in the video!

I posted a threshold speed calculation spreadsheet for my 67F to this website years ago, but we're many updates beyond that UI and I've no idea where you'd find it.  PM me if you'd like me to email you a copy.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Shadrach

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Thanks for all the input, at first I was just landing the plane, I have done all the landings and takeoffs since instruction began as I have hours in a champ when I was going for an LSA then when I was supposed to take my LSA checkride I bought a mooney!.  

At first I had it alot simpler and would use the 45 past abeam and all that but my instructor wants me to time the legs, I use the clock on the yoke.  He wants more consistency and procedure.  If I stray, from it he gets frustrated.  When I'm solo on final I'm 80mph, I don't know what I am over the numbers or fence or whatever since once I start round out, I'm looking out the window.  So maybe I'm already at 75.  80mph on final feels great, below that the stall horn will chirp from time to time and it's pretty mushy.  In the video I used 80 on final.  You guys are right, when I used to much speed and not enough trim, I got into a bounce but I added power and flared again as the runway is quite long.  In the video, is that too much float?

To sum it up, i have to do what my instructor wants for training and I will simplify afterwards.  He's a navy pilot and wants it exactly the same every time.  I like to "Make it work" as it allows for compensation for a gust or botched approach.  I'm not the one making it rocket science.  

I prefer a power off approach the plane seems to like near zero power full flaps and full back trim at 1 mile final.

10 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

Wow thats a lot of fiddling with stuff and remembering stuff.

36 seconds on downwind?  Do you use a stopwatch?  You aint doing it right if you arent turning using the square root of pi as your outer radius. 

Its not a space shuttle  just land the damn thing

Smart Ass!, 100mph downwind for 36 seconds gives 1 mile!  after the two turns there you are 1 mile final.  I use the clock in the yoke, winding it is on my check list.  

17 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Nice looking bird!  From viewing the video, it appears that you handle the aircraft well. Early on you should be flying nice stable approaches with good airspeed control and proper flare touching down with the wing nearly stalled, but enough elevator authority to hold the nose off.  That appears to be what's happening.  I do not believe you were at 85mph in any of the footage of this video.  I too have a 67F.  My plane weighs 1688lbs dry.  With 240lbs of fuel (40gal) of fuel, 25 lbs of crap in the back and two 190lb men, 85mph would be 1.5XVso in my plane at that weight (2333lbs).  That's pretty fast for final.  Good to have extra margin, but excess speed has bitten many Mooney pilots.  You might tactfully ask your instructor what he thinks is reasonable in terms of margin.  And then ask him to calculate it with you.  Just using MGW numbers is not optimal because 5mph matters in a Mooney (especially in ground effect). 

I think your procedure is a bit on the busy side, but I am betting as you gain comfort you will simplify.

If descending and ascending in cruise, I use 300fpm for both. Full power in climb and cruise power in descent.  My VFR had number are 120MPH on downwind or 2.5 miles out so that I can drop the gear abeam the numbers or at 2 miles if flying a non standard pattern.  Flaps are as needed during the approach.  Contrary to popular belief, they do provide significant drag (going power off abeam the numbers to landing with and without flaps will demonstrate the difference nicely).  For normal ops I want to be at 1.2 Vso by short final (1.3 is fine for long runways) and slowing as I cross the threshold. For short fields (<2000ft) I want to cross the threshold in ground effect at 1.1Vso.  

Nice job in the video!

I posted a threshold speed calculation spreadsheet for my 67F to this website years ago, but we're many updates beyond that UI and I've no idea where you'd find it.  PM me if you'd like me to email you a copy.

Thanks, I am beginning to like the bird.  With my instructor, when he was harping on me about being a few seconds late with gear or about not putting in the two notches of flaps abeam, etc I asked him to just relax and watch as I had done 20 solo landings the day before and he was delighted when we turned off the first taxiway.  I gotta get him to take a chill pill, he's stressing me the fu out.

Thanks everyone, I feel like I should be further along after 20 hours in the plane.   

[Yetti]

Oh and trim all the way down or at least I have to since I am starting fast and bleeding off speed.   Fence or just past the fence I will usually grab two more handfuls of trim. 

[gsxrpilot]

How much more time do you have to spend with this instructor? I'd fire him and get someone else. But then CFI's are a dime a dozen around here, but probably not everywhere.

[Hank]

One of the benefits of a later model is higher gear and flap speeds. Mine are 125 mph for flaps, and 120 mph for gear. Yours will probably vary.

Pattern entry:  at TPA [often 1000 agl], 90 mph with Takeoff flaps. Sometimes I am still slowing down to flap speed . . . Bad pilot! Should be 1/2 mile from runway, maybe a couple of blocks further out [runway still inside wingtip]. Full Prop, Full Rich, whatever MP it takes to hold 90 mph [~16" or so].

Downwind:  level, 90 mph, Takeoff flaps. Abeam the numbers, drop gear, slightly retard throttle, begin descent [usually 300-350 fpm].

Turn Base when the end of the runway is 45º over my shoulder. Target altitude:  700 agl.

Base leg:  continue descent at 300-350 fpm, Takeoff Flaps, Gear Down, still holding 90 mph.

Turn Final, roll wings level lined up fairly well with the runway, VASI / PAPI lights red over white, 85 mph. Target Altitude:  500 agl

Final:  continue descent, keeping lights correct and / or landing spot stationary in the windshield. Slow down to Target Speed by short final [75 mph if heavy; reduce by 5 mph for every 300 lb. below gross for that landing]. Do the math before arriving at the airport, or at least estimate the change in landing weight [full tanks = 300 lb for 52 gal, or 380 for 64 gal; estimate how much isn't there].

So I'm usually at 70-75 mph by short final. When I'm sure I have the field made, throttle to idle and glide in. Level off close to the ground, hold her off and wait for the horn, then she will settle down nicely. If you're more than a couple of feet high, it won't be a "settle" that happens . . .

Two things surpised me about your procedures:  1) what's with all of th eleveling off? You're descending to land, so descend!  2) 700 fpm is pretty high rate of descent that close to the ground! Try a Stabliized Approach, a steady, constant rate descent. Trim so that at any phase of flight you can let go of the yoke and the descent will continue at the same rate. The only time I have ever leveled off during my landing approaches was going into an obstructed field, had to level off on final ~150 agl until past the trees, then throttle to idle and descend to land. Note that leveling off requires adding throttle, and it must be removed to not accelerate rapidly when you resume the descent.

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Thanks for all the input, at first I was just landing the plane, I have done all the landings and takeoffs since instruction began as I have hours in a champ when I was going for an LSA then when I was supposed to take my LSA checkride I bought a mooney!.  

At first I had it alot simpler and would use the 45 past abeam and all that but my instructor wants me to time the legs, I use the clock on the yoke.  He wants more consistency and procedure.  If I stray, from it he gets frustrated.  When I'm solo on final I'm 80mph, I don't know what I am over the numbers or fence or whatever since once I start round out, I'm looking out the window.  So maybe I'm already at 75.  80mph on final feels great, below that the stall horn will chirp from time to time and it's pretty mushy.  In the video I used 80 on final.  You guys are right, when I used to much speed and not enough trim, I got into a bounce but I added power and flared again as the runway is quite long.  In the video, is that too much float?

To sum it up, i have to do what my instructor wants for training and I will simplify afterwards.  He's a navy pilot and wants it exactly the same every time.  I like to "Make it work" as it allows for compensation for a gust or botched approach.  I'm not the one making it rocket science.  

I prefer a power off approach the plane seems to like near zero power full flaps and full back trim at 1 mile final.

Smart Ass!, 100mph downwind for 36 seconds gives 1 mile!  after the two turns there you are 1 mile final.  I use the clock in the yoke, winding it is on my check list.  

Thanks, I am beginning to like the bird.  With my instructor, when he was harping on me about being a few seconds late with gear or about not putting in the two notches of flaps abeam, etc I asked him to just relax and watch as I had done 20 solo landings the day before and he was delighted when we turned off the first taxiway.  I gotta get him to take a chill pill, he's stressing me the fu out.

Thanks everyone, I feel like I should be further along after 20 hours in the plane.   

The thing about the gear is that you really want a flow (no matter how simple) that you always repeat.  For me depending on the operation that's the FAF, abeam the numbers or 2 miles if given a non standard approach.

One time when practicing an engine failure in the pattern I left the gear up to stretch my glide to make the runway.  I was distracted while maneuvering by several erroneous calls made by the tower. I recognized the gear were still up on final, but late enough to freak me out.  It is entirely possible to end up in a scenario where the gear horn becomes another background noise.  It's not easy, but possible.

[steingar]

I do one thing very differently from a lot of you guys.  I drop my gear and pump in full flaps well before I hit the downwind, usually a few miles out.  My thinking is once I get into the pattern my eyes could be outside, looking for traffic and at conditions, and not messing with the airplane.  I loose a couple minutes, well worth it for safety.

If a CFI harped on my to time legs and watch speeds I'd fire him on the spot.  If he wants to time legs have at it, my eyes belong outside.  GA aircraft rarely land the same way twice.  Density altitude, wind, obstacles, field length, aircraft weight and lots of other things affect landings.  I think the key here is to be able to manage pitch and power intuitively based on what the airplane is doing, not follow some set drill every time.  My biggest frustration is I really don't have that intuitive feel yet.  I will.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Hank, My instructor won't let me start descending untill turn to base, i used to descend on downwind past abeam with old instructor in champ.  My approaches now are a bit high, I will have to read more from the airplane flying handbook.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Steingar, I have the make it work mentality, that seems to work out, usually I have a go around trying to follow all these procedures that are given to me, lol.  I have to do what I have to do, I've already got rid on an instructor for my PPL, I don't want to keep getting new ones!  I want to go out and fly places dammit!  I have 20 more hours to go since none of the champ training transfers as the instructor was a CFIS.  I think I'll be ready after another 5-10 more dual.  

My instructor will show me something once the way he wants me to do it, and if I deviate even on the first try he's mad.  Perhaps I can slip him something for his nerves when I give him a bottle of water from the hanger fridge.  

[N201MKTurbo]

9 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Steingar, I have the make it work mentality, that seems to work out, usually I have a go around trying to follow all these procedures that are given to me, lol.  I have to do what I have to do, I've already got rid on an instructor for my PPL, I don't want to keep getting new ones!  I want to go out and fly places dammit!  I have 20 more hours to go since none of the champ training transfers as the instructor was a CFIS.  I think I'll be ready after another 5-10 more dual.  

My instructor will show me something once the way he wants me to do it, and if I deviate even on the first try he's mad.  Perhaps I can slip him something for his nerves when I give him a bottle of water from the hanger fridge.  

I can get you in touch with Rene, he has been doing a lot of Mooney instruction lately. He has over 1000 hours in Mooney's.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

I'm based out of KGYR.  Is he nearby?  

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I'm based out of KGYR.  Is he nearby?  

He is based out of KFFZ, you would need to talk to him to see about meeting up. 

If you just need hours why don't you talk Rene into going to the AOPA flyin in Tampa. You will have your 20 hours by Monday.

[Shadrach]

45 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Steingar, I have the make it work mentality, that seems to work out, usually I have a go around trying to follow all these procedures that are given to me, lol.  I have to do what I have to do, I've already got rid on an instructor for my PPL, I don't want to keep getting new ones!  I want to go out and fly places dammit!  I have 20 more hours to go since none of the champ training transfers as the instructor was a CFIS.  I think I'll be ready after another 5-10 more dual.  

My instructor will show me something once the way he wants me to do it, and if I deviate even on the first try he's mad.  Perhaps I can slip him something for his nerves when I give him a bottle of water from the hanger fridge.  

If you really want to impress him, pretend you're back in the champ and go fully cross controlled power off abeam the numbers all the way to touchdown.   Your superior stick and rudder skills should mellow him right out!  Let me know how it works out!