Feedback requested

[Stetson20]

Spring is just around the corner. I've been quiet lately. I'd appreciate feeback on this airplane. Planning to make an offer.

Thanks!

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1458945/1966-mooney-m20c-mark-21?dlr=1&pcid=17527&if=1

[1964-M20E]

if the air frame is in good shape looks pretty good.  Maybe a little high on the asking price without an autopilot, and non standard 6 pack.

 

I'm thinking more like the $35k range for this one but that is my opinion and I have been know to be wrong before.

[Stetson20]

Thats 25% off the asking price. It is in annual right now, and IFR cert will be done with the annual. The salesman (Dave at All American) said because of the annual/IFR, the price is firm. They are absorbing the price of the annual/IFR, however, Ive already scheduled a tentative PPI with Don Maxwell Aviation.

Thanks for the feedback! Anyone else?

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Stetson20 said:

Spring is just around the corner. I've been quiet lately. I'd appreciate feeback on this airplane. Planning to make an offer. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1458945/1966-mooney-m20c-mark-21?dlr=1&pcid=17527&if=1

I'm not a fan of bladders, electric gear (on a C model) or 3 blade props on 4 cylinder Lycomings. It has a non-standard panel and no engine monitor. What year was the engine overhaul and how much has it been flying ? 201 windshield, cowl enclosure, shoulder harnesses and smooth belly are nice (did it have a gear up landing ?).

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, KLRDMD said:

I'm not a fan of bladders,

Why is that? Getting a plane that won't have a nasty, and expensive, surprise in it's future seems like a good thing to me. 

[Stetson20]

8 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I'm not a fan of bladders, electric gear (on a C model) or 3 blade props on 4 cylinder Lycomings. It has a non-standard panel and no engine monitor. What year was the engine overhaul and how much has it been flying ? 201 windshield, cowl enclosure, shoulder harnesses and smooth belly are nice (did it have a gear up landing ?).

Waiting on the engine overhaul date from the seller. I asked about the damage history and was told it had no damage history. I know I need to check the FAA registry? Somewhere online I can get a damage history report- I'm in the beginning stages of my due diligence right now. I've scheduled a PPI from Don Maxwell Aviation pending approval for my loan.

Also, I've heard good things about All American Aircraft. I know that's not ALL you should investigate, but they sell 40+ Mooneys a year.. Seems like if most were unhappy with their service, I would have read about it here or MAPA

[ArtVandelay]

Why is that? Getting a plane that won't have a nasty, and expensive, surprise in it's future seems like a good thing to me. 

It reduces your useful load is the most common complaint.

[Mooneymite]

Just now, teejayevans said:

It reduces your useful load.

Here we go again......

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, teejayevans said:

It reduces your useful load.

Small price to pay. M20Cs generally have excellent UL. This one also has 1 piece belly and 3 blade prop but I suspect UL is still 900 pounds and can carry about anything you can squeeze in it.

If I were the buyer I'd be happy with the airframe and the engine and unhappy with the panel. These are the 3 main considerations. So it depend on what this buyer prizes. I'd want an autopilot, an engine analyzer, and ADS-B. Only the A/P is prohibitively expensive. 

[Stetson20]

12 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Small price to pay. M20Cs generally have excellent UL. This one also has 1 piece belly and 3 blade prop but I suspect UL is still 900 pounds and can carry about anything you can squeeze in it.

If I were the buyer I'd be happy with the airframe and the engine and unhappy with the panel. These are the 3 main considerations. So it depend on what this buyer prizes. I'd want an autopilot, an engine analyzer, and ADS-B. Only the A/P is prohibitively expensive. 

Good points! I figure 90% of my flying will be commuting from central MI to KMDW- alone. That takes care of the U/L issue. Another 10% of flying would be me and my wife on short cross country flights. Engine analyzer would be nice- maybe in the future. ADS-B- well, I will have to upgrade eventually. As for the A/P.. truthfully, I need to keep my stick/rudder skills polished. Us airline guys can get lazy. I will see how it goes without the A/P. GuitarMaster mentioned a possible future A/P option that wasn't prohibitively expensive. 

I thought about a nicer (read more expensive) cross country machine- but realistically I'm going to fly 1.0 to 1.5 each way over to work and back on a weekly basis, as weather permits.

[BKlott]

Damage history.

 

Occurrence Date	2009-03-03		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20C		Damage	MINOR
Document Last Modified	2014-03-31
Narrative	(-23) ON FEBRUARY 3RD AT 0851 LOCAL TIME DURING THE LANDING ROLLOUT THE AIRCRAFT DEPARTED RUNWAY 17 AT SUGAR LAND AIRPORT AND STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN. THE PILOT LANDED WITHIN THE FIRST 1000 FEET OF RUNWAY ALONG THE CENTERLINE. THE AIRCRAFT THEN VEERED TO THE LEFT WHERE IT DEPARTED THE RUNWAY AT TAXIWAY D. THE AIRCRAFT STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN DAMAGING THE PROP, NOSE WHEEL, ENGINE COWLING, BELLY, LEFT FLAP, AND THE LEFT ELEVATOR. THE PILOT STATED THAT HE FELT THE WINDS WERE STRONGER THAN WHAT WAS BEING REPORTED ON AWOS. THE WINDS AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT WERE REPORTED AS 0090 DEGREES AT 09 KNOTS WITH GUST TO 16 KNOTS. THERE WERE NO INJURIES.

 

 

[Stetson20]

5 minutes ago, BKlott said:

Damage history.

 

Occurrence Date	2009-03-03		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20C		Damage	MINOR
Document Last Modified	2014-03-31
Narrative	(-23) ON FEBRUARY 3RD AT 0851 LOCAL TIME DURING THE LANDING ROLLOUT THE AIRCRAFT DEPARTED RUNWAY 17 AT SUGAR LAND AIRPORT AND STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN. THE PILOT LANDED WITHIN THE FIRST 1000 FEET OF RUNWAY ALONG THE CENTERLINE. THE AIRCRAFT THEN VEERED TO THE LEFT WHERE IT DEPARTED THE RUNWAY AT TAXIWAY D. THE AIRCRAFT STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN DAMAGING THE PROP, NOSE WHEEL, ENGINE COWLING, BELLY, LEFT FLAP, AND THE LEFT ELEVATOR. THE PILOT STATED THAT HE FELT THE WINDS WERE STRONGER THAN WHAT WAS BEING REPORTED ON AWOS. THE WINDS AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT WERE REPORTED AS 0090 DEGREES AT 09 KNOTS WITH GUST TO 16 KNOTS. THERE WERE NO INJURIES.

 

 

Hmm.. so the salesman said no damage history.. 

[BKlott]

"The salesman said..."

Here is the complete record from the source I've quoted for you:

N Number: 46HS
Last Action Date	2016-12-05
Airworthiness Date	1966-07-25		Expiration Date	2019-12-31
Manufacturer_Name	MOONEY		Model Name	M20C
Registrant Name	INTEGRITY AERO LLC		Street	PO BOX 1223
Registrant City	BOERNE		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	780061223		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Corporation
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2016-12-05
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
Serial Number	3430		Aircraft Type	Fixed wing single engine
Mode S Code	51314002		Year Mfr	1966
Aircraft Category	Land		Builder Certification	Type Certificated
Number Engines	1		Number Seats	4
Aircraft Weight	CLASS 1		Aircraft Cruising Speed	127
Airworthiness Classification	Standard		Approved Operation Codes	Normal
Engine Manufacturer	LYCOMING
Engine Model Name	O&VO-360 SER		Engine Type	Reciprocating
Engine Horsepower/Thrust	0		Fuel Consumed	0.00
------- History 1 -------
Last Action Date	2015-09-24
Registrant Name	BRISTOW PAUL M		Street	1113 LITCHFIELD CIR
Registrant City	BURLESON		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	760288242		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2015-09-24
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
------- History 2 -------
Last Action Date	2012-06-22
Registrant Name	BRISTOW PAUL M		Street	3433 WILD OAKS CT
Registrant City	BURLESON		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	760282370		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2012-06-22
Status	Third Notice for Registration Renewal
------- History 3 -------
Last Action Date	2008-07-15
Registrant Name	BRISTOW PAUL M		Street	3433 WILD OAKS CT
Registrant City	BURLESON		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	760282370		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2005-07-15
Status	Third Notice for Re- Registration/Renewal
------- History 4 -------
Last Action Date	2005-07-15
Registrant Name	BRISTOW PAUL M		Street	3433 WILD OAKS CT
Registrant City	BURLESON		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	76028-2370		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2005-07-15
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
------- History 5 -------
Last Action Date	2002-10-15
Registrant Name	T & R AVIATION CORP		Street	4028 EL CAMPO
Registrant City	FORT WORTH		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	76107		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Corporation
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1999-09-30
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 6 -------
Last Action Date	1999-09-30
Registrant Name	T & R AVIATION CORP		Street	4028 EL CAMPO
Registrant City	FORT WORTH		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	76107		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Corporation
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1999-09-30
Status	N-Number assigned
***** No Deregistered Data Found *****
***** No Reserved Data Found *****
------- FAA Accident/Incident 1 -------
Occurrence Date	2009-03-03		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20C		Damage	MINOR
Document Last Modified	2014-03-31
Narrative	(-23) ON FEBRUARY 3RD AT 0851 LOCAL TIME DURING THE LANDING ROLLOUT THE AIRCRAFT DEPARTED RUNWAY 17 AT SUGAR LAND AIRPORT AND STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN. THE PILOT LANDED WITHIN THE FIRST 1000 FEET OF RUNWAY ALONG THE CENTERLINE. THE AIRCRAFT THEN VEERED TO THE LEFT WHERE IT DEPARTED THE RUNWAY AT TAXIWAY D. THE AIRCRAFT STRUCK A TAXIWAY SIGN DAMAGING THE PROP, NOSE WHEEL, ENGINE COWLING, BELLY, LEFT FLAP, AND THE LEFT ELEVATOR. THE PILOT STATED THAT HE FELT THE WINDS WERE STRONGER THAN WHAT WAS BEING REPORTED ON AWOS. THE WINDS AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT WERE REPORTED AS 0090 DEGREES AT 09 KNOTS WITH GUST TO 16 KNOTS. THERE WERE NO INJURIES.
***** No NTBS Accidents Found *****
***** No NTBS Pre 1982 Accidents Found *****
***** No SDR's Found *****

 

 

[201er]

Way overpriced. I think with the firm pricing they are either dreaming or waiting for a sucker. Just my four half pennies.

[Stetson20]

6 minutes ago, 201er said:

Way overpriced. I think with the firm pricing they are either dreaming or waiting for a sucker. Just my four half pennies.

3 C models have been there awhile. Thanks for your insight. Maybe if they want to make a sale I could horse trade for a 430 WAAS? I think we can come to an agreeable price when I have the prequalified financing letter in hand. I'm not falling in love with this airplane.. business decision.

[tigers2007]

Was the motor overhauled after the 2009 accident? I'm curious how bad the rear spar was cracked after the flaps hit the dirt. If the overhaul was post-accident, I don't think the pricing is that bad. I'd look into the pedigree and history of the overhaul shop; their website looks fancy. Hey at least its near the end of the infant mortality stage.

[BKlott]

Mr. Nit Picky says...look at the second photo in the ad, the low shot from the right rear of the plane. Magnify the picture. Beneath the N in the registration number and a bit aft of that it appears that maybe the lower fuselage was crunched and not properly repaired. It just doesn't look right. Now this could just be the photo or a reflection but, if not, that would certainly detract from the appearance and value of the airplane.

[Stetson20]

34 minutes ago, BKlott said:

Mr. Nit Picky says...look at the second photo in the ad, the low shot from the right rear of the plane. Magnify the picture. Beneath the N in the registration number and a bit aft of that it appears that maybe the lower fuselage was crunched and not properly repaired. It just doesn't look right. Now this could just be the photo or a reflection but, if not, that would certainly detract from the appearance and value of the airplane.

The metal looks crimped. Not a smooth curvature wrapping from the side to the bottom.

[carusoam]

Go see it...

Discuss the details.

The damage history doesn't exist if part replacement covers all the broken or damaged parts... then you want to know what parts were replaced and who did the work...

If there is bent sheet metal as reported/supposed here, that doesn't coincide with the words 'no damage history'

If it is too far to go visit, call David and Jimmy to ask.

I wouldn't want to travel, expecting no damage history to find bent sheet metal.

Fortunately, the reputation of AAA is very strong.  An open and honest conversation should be expected.

A PPI at a reputable shop is going to be done, nobody would be happy finding repaired damage that wasn't disclosed.

Read the Logs.  Damage and repairs or replacement parts have a way of be documented there.

If you desire and pay for an NDH plane you need to make sure for yourself that it is truely an NDH plane...

Full disclosure... I bought my O from AAA. I went through similar steps because the plane had some documented mishap early in its life. PPI indicated All was in order.

The other thing to keep in mind when looking for a perfect NDH plane it is a challenge to look disinterested and ask for a discount after you publicly post your thoughts... 

Good luck hope this helps.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 17, 2017 by carusoam

[Mr Bill]

Stetson20,

Air Mods & Repair in Robbinsville, NJ has a C that might meet your criteria. 4400TT, 1000SMOH  G430 No damage shown on Aircraft Query.

Good luck on your search.

Mr Bill

[Stetson20]

6 minutes ago, Mr Bill said:

Stetson20,

Air Mods & Repair in Robbinsville, NJ has a C that might meet your criteria. 4400TT, 1000SMOH  G430 No damage shown on Aircraft Query.

Good luck on your search.

Mr Bill

I'll look. Thanks!

[Stetson20]

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Go see it...

Discuss the details.

The damage history doesn't exist if part replacement covers all the broken or damaged parts... then you want to know what parts were replaced and who did the work...

If there is bent sheet metal as reported/supposed here, that doesn't coincide with the words 'no damage history'

If it is too far to go visit, call David and Jimmy to ask.

I wouldn't want to travel, expecting no damage history to find bent sheet metal.

Fortunately, the reputation of AAA is very strong.  An open and honest conversation should be expected.

A PPI at a reputable shop is going to be done, nobody would be happy finding repaired damage that wasn't disclosed.

Read the Logs.  Damage and repairs or replacement parts have a way of be documented there.

If you desire and pay for an NDH plane you need to make sure for yourself that it is truely an NDH plane...

Full disclosure... I bought my O from AAA. I went through similar steps because the plane had some documented mishap early in its life. PPI indicated All was in order.

The other thing to keep in mind when looking for a perfect NDH plane it is a challenge to look disinterested and ask for a discount after you publicly post your thoughts... 

Good luck hope this helps.

Best regards,

-a-

All good points. Thank you.