Ben E. Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Hi Guys: I've been looking at a M20F that's being sold through Air Mods. Here's the link: http://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/forsale/N6984V#/sites/airmodsflightcenter.com/files/forsale/N6984V/N6984V_0323-b_forsale_big.jpg Dave is working on scanning the logbooks, but in the meantime he was kind enough to send me some pics from the engine logbook. Here is the link: https://goo.gl/photos/yj5q2E2c2Acjp89e6 I've looked at a lot of log books, but I have never seen this before. In 2000, the engine was disassembled to comply with a service letter that I can't find on the internet. The camshaft was replaced as well as several other parts. It doesn't mention an overhaul or making sure parts meet limits. Then 272 hours later in an undated entry, an A&P documents replacing the cylinders with ECI Cerminil remanufactured cylinders and says because of this and the work done in 2000 that this constitutes a major overhaul. What are your thoughts on this "overhaul" and the plane based on what you can see from the ad? - Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandontwalker Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 The paint, interior and avionics look nice. I would be concerned about the engine though. It's advertised at ~1300 hours SMOH. Given what you said, I have real reservations that the work done would qualify as a major. At best, it is around a 1600 hour engine since the case was split. At worst, it's a run-out. Just a PP, maybe one of our AP/IA's will weigh in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 other than what you said about the engine like above I'd consider it a 1600 hour engine we only talking 300 hours here. Avionics look good, good autopilot, interior and exterior looks good. 201 windshield too bad it didn't get the 201 cowling. Get him down about $5k to $6k (AMUs) and you probably would be in the right ball park. Remember get a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) by a mechanic of your choosing not the one who has been working on it unless you know him really well and then still question his opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 I'm with Brandon on this. The only Lycoming S.L. L163 I found was superseded by S.B. 533 which deals with sudden engine stoppage, prop strike and the like. Maybe 163C is something different, but it appears nowhere I looked. Waiting for Clarence or another of the AP/IA members to see this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 I'm not sure why it matters whether it was an official overhaul or not. Most of the important parts were replaced and 16 years and 1300/1600 hours later the engine is either in good condition or it's not. I see in the logs that several recent annual inspections were done by AirMods which has a solid reputation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben E. Posted February 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 I guess I don't know much about what's checked in a major overhaul. I'd need to look up the procedures on that. One concern would be checking the crankshaft. Maybe it hasn't been examined since the last (pre-2000) overhaul, which I don't know the date of yet. I was actually looking at the engine time differently than you guys. They did the "overhaul" in 2000, and then on the later undated entry it says the cylinders were replaced at 272 SMOH, so in a sense at 1325SMOH that would make it ~1100 hours. Another thing, what do you guys think the issues are with what looks like a rusted starter flywheel in the photograph? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 716 lbs available with full fuel? That certainly blows my M20F capability. L163C is a sudden stoppage inspection. Any evidence of a gear up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben E. Posted February 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, Cyril Gibb said: 716 lbs available with full fuel? That certainly blows my M20F capability. L163C is a sudden stoppage inspection. Any evidence of a gear up? That's an estimate based on the assumption that the useful load is 1100 lbs and 64 gallon tanks. I don't know what the actual number is yet, but I'd be extremely happy with a 1100lbs useful load. I'll find out about the possibility of a gear up once I see the complete logs, hopefully soon. Does anyone have a link for L163C by chance? I can't find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SSP-112-2 Index of SB, SI, and SL.pdf shows the prop strike inspection was superseded with SB533 https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB533C Recommended Action for sudden Engine Stoppage, Propeller_Rotor Strike or Loss of Propeller_Rotor Blade or Ti (1).pdf I'd be extremely happy with 1100lbs also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Full fuel? In 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I had to tanker full fuel in my F. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 15 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said: Full fuel? In 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I had to tanker full fuel in my F. -Robert If I'm just toodling around, I agree. But I'm a chicken at heart. If I'm traveling reasonable distances in IMC I want to be able to go missed at my destination and then have 2 hours in the tank at my alternate. Carrying an extra hundred pounds of fuel while I'm in cloud is worth it for the peace of mind. YMMV 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Doesn't it bother anyone that it needed new cylinders after only 272 hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, Cyril Gibb said: If I'm just toodling around, I agree. But I'm a chicken at heart. If I'm traveling reasonable distances in IMC I want to go missed at my destination and then have 2 hours in the tank at my alternate. Carrying an extra hundred pounds of fuel while I'm in cloud is worth it for the peace of mind. YMMV Don't forget to add some extra time for the extra time to climb that extra fuel too. Flying a Mooney at min weight is one amazing experience. Nothing like it. -Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, RobertGary1 said: Don't forget to add some extra time for the extra time to climb that extra fuel too. Flying a Mooney at min weight is one amazing experience. Nothing like it. -Robert Unless you get to fly a Comanche 400 with little fuel in cold air. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben E. Posted February 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 52 minutes ago, teejayevans said: Doesn't it bother anyone that it needed new cylinders after only 272 hours? I don't think that's what happened. I think they did maintenance on the engine, perhaps after a prop strike, and then realized 272 hours later that if they replaced the cylinders then they could retroactively call it a major overhaul. In any case, 272 hours previously there were not new or overhauled cylinders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Who did the work?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 That's an estimate based on the assumption that the useful load is 1100 lbs and 64 gallon tanks. I don't know what the actual number is yet, but I'd be extremely happy with a 1100lbs useful load. I'll find out about the possibility of a gear up once I see the complete logs, hopefully soon. Does anyone have a link for L163C by chance? I can't find it. Hey Ben,I've been looking at that plane as well. Dave sent me an email today and said the useful load is 991.96lbs. If you go look at it and decide it isn't what you want. Do you mind shooting me an email?CharlesSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Ask the question this way. How long will it be till I need spend big bucks on the engine. I would say 8 or 10 years based on the work and 100 hours a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: Full fuel? In 20 years I can count on one hand the number of times I had to tanker full fuel in my F. -Robert Not having long range tanks cost me @ $3000 last year. Your mission is your mission but we need to understand they buyers mission to give them effective advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyDreamer Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Looks like a bunch of us were looking at this plane. I hadn't gotten to the point of requesting/reading the logs, but if you find any issues while looking into them, please let us know. I'd love to learn a bit of knowledge from the little intricacies found in these logbooks, for when I'm ready to buy my own bird. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben E. Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 15 hours ago, bradp said: Who did the work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk John Jewell Aircraft, Inc. did the work before the cylinder replacement. They're still in business: http://www.sounddimension.corinth.ms/services/engine/index.html I don't know who replaced the cylinders. I can't read the name of the A&P unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben E. Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 11 hours ago, xcrmckenna said: Hey Ben, I've been looking at that plane as well. Dave sent me an email today and said the useful load is 991.96lbs. If you go look at it and decide it isn't what you want. Do you mind shooting me an email? Charles Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Thanks for that info. I will definitely let you know my thoughts if I go check it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 54 minutes ago, Ben E. said: John Jewell Aircraft, Inc. did the work before the cylinder replacement. They're still in business: http://www.sounddimension.corinth.ms/services/engine/index.html I don't know who replaced the cylinders. I can't read the name of the A&P unfortunately. I'm familiar with that shop and have had John Jewell do cylinder work for me on 2 occasions, back in the late 90s and 2001. While I haven't used this shop since 2001, they had an excellent reputation. Do not confuse John Jewell (Holly Springs MS) with another Jewell that also does engine work, in Kennett MO. That's a shop that also does engine work, and has done all but one Mooney annual for me since 1995. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Can I still get the 1100lb useful load and 150 kt upgrade?? I'd gladly trade my 1017lb useful and 140kts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 I'm familiar with the shop in NJ. One of the interesting ways to get an answer, is to ask the man selling the plane. Dave can bring you up to speed with all the details of what and why. For your own knowledge read up on IO360 cams. These things are the root of Mooney heart-ache related to engines that have sat without running. There was a large batch that had poor surface hardening of the cam lobes. Kept oiled by running often, no problem. Let sit for months, the cam would dry off and the surface would deteriorate, exposing the soft layer below that doesn't last very long. My planes have visited Dave's shop a few times in the last 15 years. Dave is an incredible wealth of knowledge for all things Normal Mooney, and a lot of things that you won't need to know about until your plane is left in a corn field somewhere far far away... He likes working with people that are interested in learning about Moonies. Enjoy the hunt! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.