ADS-B Resource Thread

[Marauder]

It's possible you were under ADS-B coverage, and that would be indicated on the Lynx NGT-9000 traffic page with the little yellow radar dish symbol. If that was the case, then the Cessna, which I'm assuming wasn't ADS-B OUT compliant, would not have been transmitted to you as a TIS-B target via the ADS-B ground stations.
Or...do you know if that Cessna was squawking mode A and mode C? Mode A targets will not be received by radar and re-transmitted as a TIS-B target; they have to report pressure altitude also in order to be a TIS-B target. Perhaps that 150 was only squawking 1200 w/no pressure altitude (mode C). If that was the case, then he'd be invisible to everyone except aircraft that have active traffic systems (TAS/TCAS) like the NGT-9000+.
There are many other scenarios that could explain why those targets weren't picked up by the NGT-9000, such as the status of the ADS-B ground stations around KOCF. Sadly, the FAA doesn't publish NOTAMS when ADS-B ground stations are inoperative and unable to send up TIS-B traffic.

And Jim, the logic you presented here, is why I signed up to install the 9000+ (and with an ESI-500 being installed at the same time, I hope I at least get a hat out of the deal like Aspen and Garmin did ).

Do you know of any reliable survey performed indicating the number of owners who intend not to do the ADS-B upgrade? Even in my area, sandwiched between Philly and the SFRA, there are still plenty of airspace left where you won't need to comply. I fly to Ocean City Maryland a lot during the summer. I expect that airspace to be crammed with non-compliant planes.




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[Bennett]

Does anyone else get a false aircraft signal when crossing a ridge line at relatively low altitude? Only lasts a moment or two, but getting a traffic alert for an "aircraft" at your exact altitude and position really gets your attention. I have had the FAA in flight test done, and everything seems to check out perfectly in the written report. My setup: dual GTNs, GDL 88. This false signal most often happens in the Bay Area of California, where we are saturated with aircraft equipped with ADS-B in-out, and many closely spaced ground stations. It is astounding to me how many aircraft show up in the 6 mile radius data ring, even filtering out aircraft that are 3500' above or below. I usually watch the trend lines carefully, and switch to the 2 mile ring as soon as any aircraft poses a potential threat. I also use the data block option for a specific target as it provides some additional useful information.

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[XXX]

On 1/24/2017 at 10:13 AM, JKeeth said:

It's possible you were under ADS-B coverage, and that would be indicated on the Lynx NGT-9000 traffic page with the little yellow radar dish symbol. If that was the case, then the Cessna, which I'm assuming wasn't ADS-B OUT compliant, would not have been transmitted to you as a TIS-B target via the ADS-B ground stations.

Or...do you know if that Cessna was squawking mode A and mode C? Mode A targets will not be received by radar and re-transmitted as a TIS-B target; they have to report pressure altitude also in order to be a TIS-B target. Perhaps that 150 was only squawking 1200 w/no pressure altitude (mode C). If that was the case, then he'd be invisible to everyone except aircraft that have active traffic systems (TAS/TCAS) like the NGT-9000+.

There are many other scenarios that could explain why those targets weren't picked up by the NGT-9000, such as the status of the ADS-B ground stations around KOCF. Sadly, the FAA doesn't publish NOTAMS when ADS-B ground stations are inoperative and unable to send up TIS-B traffic.

Jim,

I do recall seeing the yellow satellite dish just not sure when and where. So when that is on I am not getting TIS-B traffic? 

I also thought that non-transponder equipped aircraft would be picked up by ground radar and broadcast through TIS-B and show up with the diamond shaped symbol on my screen (no airspeed or heading info).

Thank you!

[JKeeth]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:37 AM, Marauder said:

Do you know of any reliable survey performed indicating the number of owners who intend not to do the ADS-B upgrade? Even in my area, sandwiched between Philly and the SFRA, there are still plenty of airspace left where you won't need to comply. I fly to Ocean City Maryland a lot during the summer. I expect that airspace to be crammed with non-compliant planes.
 

Hi Marauder,

Nope, haven't heard any talk about estimating the number of owners that will not comply with the mandate. Perhaps AOPA has some survey data that could be used to determine that. Your concern is valid about the increase in traffic in certain areas that will result after 2020 due to non-equipped airplanes trying to stay clear of the ADS-B rule-compliant airspaces.

11 hours ago, Chupacabra said:

Jim,

I do recall seeing the yellow satellite dish just not sure when and where. So when that is on I am not getting TIS-B traffic? 

I also thought that non-transponder equipped aircraft would be picked up by ground radar and broadcast through TIS-B and show up with the diamond shaped symbol on my screen (no airspeed or heading info).

Thank you!

Hi Chupacabra,

That is correct. If the yellow radar dish symbol is visible on the traffic page of the NGT-9000, then you are below coverage of the ADS-B ground stations and at that point you will not see any TIS-B traffic on the NGT-9000. The only traffic you will see is other ADS-B out equipped airplanes.

Non-transponder equipped aircraft are invisible to everyone, ATC included. I think you are thinking of primary radar, which is far different than secondary-surveillance radar (ATCRBS) that ATC uses. Primary radar is used very little in the ATC environment, and only as a backup system.

Hope this helps!

Jim

[XXX]

21 hours ago, JKeeth said:

Hi Marauder,

Nope, haven't heard any talk about estimating the number of owners that will not comply with the mandate. Perhaps AOPA has some survey data that could be used to determine that. Your concern is valid about the increase in traffic in certain areas that will result after 2020 due to non-equipped airplanes trying to stay clear of the ADS-B rule-compliant airspaces.

Hi Chupacabra,

That is correct. If the yellow radar dish symbol is visible on the traffic page of the NGT-9000, then you are below coverage of the ADS-B ground stations and at that point you will not see any TIS-B traffic on the NGT-9000. The only traffic you will see is other ADS-B out equipped airplanes.

Non-transponder equipped aircraft are invisible to everyone, ATC included. I think you are thinking of primary radar, which is far different than secondary-surveillance radar (ATCRBS) that ATC uses. Primary radar is used very little in the ATC environment, and only as a backup system.

Hope this helps!

Jim

Very good information. Thank you Jim.

Steve

[tigers2007]

JKeeth - The broadcast of primary targets was supposed to be a benefit of ADS-B, correct?


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[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

JKeeth - The broadcast of primary targets was supposed to be a benefit of ADS-B, correct?


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Based on what Jim said, and my understanding, no.  Again it is semantics.  Primary means no transponder just picked up by bouncing radar off a target and seeing the return.  Just like rain.  The benefit is seeing all ADS-B as well as most mode C/S traffic.  Saw that on my way to KCLS Tuesday.  Head on, same altitude, 1 mile (as called out by the nice young lady in the GTX345).

So if you are flying a cross country and you are in airspace that does not require ADS-B, IF you are high enough to receive TIS-B traffic, you will see mode C/S traffic that ATC sees.

[Marauder]

Has anyone needed to reset their rebate date? I am worried that my shop is getting behind and my installation will be delayed. I put it in for the rebate as far out as I could to make sure I had it in at a date after the installation. 

[jamesm]

Hi Marauder,

I did  reset my ADS-B date, I think it was 5 days before it expired (1/20) . Like you I kept getting delays from the  avionics shop on when I could drop off the airplane and ordering of the correct parts.

I just told  the ADS-B rebate office/group  my circumstances   and  they granted me  to I think it was to end of February . So I wound  up getting the airplane back a week after the original date (1/20), completed the ADS-B flyout 1/26 and funny you should ask I just received the ADS-B check today. 

Go ahead and ask they are very reasonable  and I contacted them this and another issue fairly responsive. 

James '67C

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, jamesm said:

Hi Marauder,

I did  reset my ADS-B date, I think it was 5 days before it expired (1/20) . Like you I kept getting delays from the  avionics shop on when I could drop off the airplane and ordering of the correct parts.

I just told  the ADS-B rebate office/group  my circumstances   and  they granted me  to I think it was to end of February . So I wound  up getting the airplane back a week after the original date (1/20), completed the ADS-B flyout 1/26 and funny you should ask I just received the ADS-B check today. 

Go ahead and ask they are very reasonable  and I contacted them this and another issue fairly responsive. 

James '67C

Thanks for sharing that. I have a date in March for the upgrade but I heard from the avionics shop that schedules are tough to maintain due to additional work needing to be done on the planes they are working on. Hopefully mine won't be one of them! Thanks again!

[Marauder]

Just an update to the thread. It looks like the FAA has extended the ADS-B flight test window from 30 days to 60 days after your scheduled installation date. Looks like the shops are getting behind.

[torrensc]

New things on the horizon? 

https://www.avweb.com/videos/Levil-Aviations-New-BOM-and-ADS-B-228792-1.html

This one appears to require no avionics shop for install. 

[Mooneymite]

Anyone know anything about this solution?

http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-uat/?utm_source=barnstormer&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=ga&utm_content=echobundle

[carusoam]

Interesting complete add on solution for a KT76a...

But, I would want to know if it can be used with certified planes....

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Anyone know anything about this solution?
http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-uat/?utm_source=barnstormer&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=ga&utm_content=echobundle

Interesting solution. The only reservation I would have is if who is installing them and have there been any issues? They aren't a known name but I do like the approach they are taking.


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[Marcopolo]

In the FAQ it states it meets the 2020 ADS-B mandate on experimental and light sport aircraft.  Nothing mentioned on certified aircraft.

[Marauder]

Just an another update to the thread. I received my ADS-B rebate literally 3 days after submission. Guess with a lot of rebates left, they have the time to push the checks out. 

Since this is an ADS-B resource thread, I thought I would share my experiences with the ADS-B solution I installed (L-3 9000+). When I first scheduled the installation, I was having some buyer's remorse due to the additional cost. Now that I have been using it for a couple of weeks, I wouldn't hesitate again on the purchase. 

Technical details; I installed an L-3 9000+ that was interfaced with my GTN 650, Aspen PFD & Aspen MFD. The 9000 also has it's own display capable of showing traffic and weather products, including interfacing with the WX-500 StormScope.

Pros;

1) The 9000+ is an active traffic unit. Until (and if) all planes are ADS-B compliant, you won't see traffic unless you are either getting an air to air ADS-B interaction or you are in ADS-B coverage. For my area, I don't see the ADS-B antennas until I am at least 1,000 AGL. An active traffic solution will let you see from the ground all transponder equipped planes on the ground and those in the air above the airport. I find this really helpful based at an airport with a fair amount of training flights.

2) The 9000+ is fully integrated into the Aspen displays but will only show traffic on the GTN at this point. For me, this is fine since the 650's display is a bit small for looking at weather products. The Aspen MFD has a number of new weather pages that are activated with the new software (Rev. 2.9). On a separate thread I will start providing details on the new capabilities.

3) The 9000+ has a WiFi module attached to it. It will work with a number of EFB products, but not with Garmin Pilot (more on this later). I did test it out with FLTPLN Go and FLYQ. I will say they work, but unlike ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot, you can see the traffic products are not as refined. The weather products were fine on these apps.

4) The 9000 units all have built in WAAS GPS units. I didn't think this was such a big deal until I flew in a plane with a GTX-345. If the panel mounted GPS goes offline, so does ADS-B. 

5) Th L-3 ATAS voice software is really well designed. I was able to get the ATAS entitlement card from attending an L-3 seminar on ADS-B. I thought it was going to be a novelty tool that I would turn off because it would become annoying. Quite the opposite experience with it. In fact, I have only heard a handful of verbal warnings and they all turned out to be real. My favorite was taxiing up to the fuel pumps. There is an incline up to the pumps that blocks my view of the taxiway heading in the opposite direction. I get a traffic alert on the ground, I stop and sure enough a plane comes over the crest headed in my direction. Nice feature.

6) Regional FIS-B radar is updated a lot more frequently than I thought. I think if you are inside of 180 nm zoom range on the device, the regional radar updates are done much more frequently than I expected. I think they are updated every 5 minutes or less. Although not real time, sure makes it more comforting knowing the weather product isn't really dated.

Cons;

1) With installed prices in the "in state" college tuition levels, you need to be committed to the plane to even make this worthwhile. As a 26 year F owner, with no plans to sell, I was fine with this decision.

2) Being a redundant kind of owner, I want the capability to work across all of my selected technologies. I am committed to Garmin Pilot and was disappointed to see that GP won't display any ADS-B products from L-3. Hopefully, this will happen in the future. 

3) Interestingly the GTN 650 will display traffic and since it has a pretty noticeable in flight warning, I like this feature. Unfortunately, FIS-B does not show up.

Some examples. Traffic on the 9000+ and the GTN:

FIS-B on the 9000 & the view out the window:

Some traffic on the Aspens:

Panel view:

 

 

[flyboy0681]

45 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Panel view:

 

 

What are those two white balls mounted around the compass?

[Marauder]

What are those two white balls mounted around the compass?

Balancing or compensating balls to eliminate magnetic interference


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[XXX]

9 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

5) Th L-3 ATAS voice software is really well designed. I was able to get the ATAS entitlement card from attending an L-3 seminar on ADS-B. I thought it was going to be a novelty tool that I would turn off because it would become annoying. Quite the opposite experience with it. In fact, I have only heard a handful of verbal warnings and they all turned out to be real. My favorite was taxiing up to the fuel pumps. There is an incline up to the pumps that blocks my view of the taxiway heading in the opposite direction. I get a traffic alert on the ground, I stop and sure enough a plane comes over the crest headed in my direction. Nice feature.

FIS-B on the 9000 & the view out the window:

Some traffic on the Aspens:

Panel view:

 

 

Great pirep! I have grown very fond of my Lynx unit as well. I frequently spot traffic before ATC calls it out to me now when flight following. 

Can you elaborate on the ATAS software? I do get traffic call outs and a visual cue on my IPad, but of course it is difficult to hear with a headset on.

Thanks!

[XXX]

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Balancing or compensating balls to eliminate magnetic interference


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I just had the same compass installed in my "F". Looks like I need some balls too, I can't get the compass within spec.

[Rmag]

7 minutes ago, Chupacabra said:

Looks like I need some balls too

Never mind... 

[Marauder]

Great pirep! I have grown very fond of my Lynx unit as well. I frequently spot traffic before ATC calls it out to me now when flight following. 
Can you elaborate on the ATAS software? I do get traffic call outs and a visual cue on my IPad, but of course it is difficult to hear with a headset on.
Thanks!

ATAS is add on software feature for the Lynx 9000 that plays through the audio panel. As I mentioned in PIREP, I wasn't quite sure how beneficial it would be. Since it only announces when there is a reasonable conflict, I have learned that when she speaks, I listen. I found this description on a website:

"ATAS is a more refined alerting technolgy that is more predictive (35 seconds prior to CPA) than older alerting systems. ATAS continues working below 500’ where traffic conflicts most often occur. When ATAS and Active TAS are combined, traffic alerting is based on using the best information first. The Lynx ATAS option announces the range, bearing and relative altitude of intruder aircraft and issues warnings such as “Traffic, traffic, seven o’clock high, two miles.”

L-3 recently posted some simulations based on real mid-air accidents. Here is an example:

The ATAS software was offered free for people who attended their ADS-B seminar and then bought a unit within 6 months.


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[Marauder]

I'm not sure if I saw this site posted on the thread, but I think it is a valuable tool for checking your ADS-B compliance status after you have any work done on the avionics.

https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx


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[flyboy0681]

12 minutes ago, nosky2high said:

I just scheduled my ADS-B install for the first week of December with http://www.flightlinegroup.com

Does anyone have any reviews or dealings with this shop based in Tallahassee? I'm based in the panhandle of Florida and there are only two Garmin dealers near me so I thought I'd give this shop a try.

Thanks,

Anthony

I can't speak for Flightline's ability to install avionics, but two years ago I needed to use their services when I experienced a very rough engine about ten minutes after departing TLH. I returned back to the airport and asked the ground controller to send me to a shop on the field and he sent me to Flightline. They were busy that day but they did assign an A&P to look over the engine. In the end they spent three hours on it and didn't find anything, assuming that maybe an injector became momentarily clogged, which I concur with because I never experienced it again. They were very fair and charged me something like $225 for their time and cleaning of the injectors, which I was happy to pay. I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.