Expensive annual

[AndyFromCB]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

at many FBO's, on Saturday morning, you will usually find a group of older pilots sitting around a "table of knowledge" hanger flying and sharing other legendary fables. Asking them will usually generate a good hours worth of social fodder for them.

Are you still a pilot though if you medical lapsed ten years ago? And you've been fighting the man to get it back because you clearly have no neurological issues even as the FBO staff has to remind you weekly that the mop bucket in the cleaning closet is not in fact the urinal and they are not part of the queer liberal conspiracy designed to deprive you of your rights. I'll think I'll pass. The only thing they are good for is the pastries they bring to the table.

Edited December 5, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[Danb]

Are you a dick or what?

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Are you a dick or what?

Just observant...And gentleman I described above actually does exist, and he did actually pee in the mop bucket...And he still thinks he's getting his medical back. I'm not a total dick though, I do enjoy taking him flying. Other than of course listening to old fart telling me everything that is wrong with the young people today.

Edited December 5, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[aviatoreb]

So I was not sharing here until it is about done but this thread is as good as any.  This is my story of how I decided to do all of my annuals at an MSC from now on - on one hand it is a lesson of "how I learned the hard way."  But no one was hurt, and it is just major squaks found in inspections on a shop floor instead of in flight - so lots of money lost, and a very bruised ego.  But in the grand scheme - eh - knock on wood and thankful it was found on the ground.

This is as good a spot as any but I have kept but I had been doing my annual with the local shop for several years out of a sense of spending my dollars locally. I chair the airport committee for my home airport KPTD, and I live in a small town and generally I have believed in the concept of supporting the local economy and the local guy, plus it was convenient and I stuck with him even when he moved to start his own shop at a nearby airport.  It was not supposed to be a paper annual and generally took roughly two weeks and the price and squaks were the sort of standard stuff I read about here.  Without going into details I will say that I know now that he was taking advantage and giving a much more superficial look than I thought during inspections.  It   He missed one very big thing which the folks at weepnomore found when I brought it in for a preemptive seal job (35 year tanks and not ever resealed) before paint.  They found some wing spar cap corrosion.  It was in plain view under  an inspection port, but I am told that this might not be as easy to see if you are not specifically looking for it as would a msc.  It was localized on one wing in 3 spots in one area, and not progressed horribly far to other parts of the wing or airplane.  But it was intergannular corrosion the sort that once it gets beyond a certain part it can't be stopped.  That was Jan.  And I was to say the least pretty bumbed - it part because I was trying to decide if to save the plane or move on, but also I was feeling a bit had because it could have been saved a couple years previously with a proper inspection and simple treatments.  So no longer trusting what else might be found I had the folks at wilmar do a prebuy-like inspection on my plane to make sure there was not other corrosion - and there was not - the tubulars were good - the rest of everything else was good.  

I spent about a month doing nothing with the plane - I was researching what else I might buy instead.  A twin?  A newer mooney?  A cirrus?  Quit flying?  Stretch way too far and buy something turbine like the turbine bonanza?    Given the hull value, plus that this is a plane a really like a lot and I don't know what else I would rather have ..I decided to save it. 

So I sent the plane to airmods in NJ for a spar cap replacement - that was mid Feb or maybe late Feb.  It was a pretty frustrating time because it is a long term project to fix a wing like that and it even sat in queue waiting its turn in the shop floor for many many months. (I had the engine pickled). I also priced a second quote at lasar for a wing replacement and they were fantastic too, but given my tks that significantly complicates that, the spar cap replacement was more economical (if you can say economical for this repair which really you cannot).  airmods can repair  the spar cap in a way that no one else can - they can do it "in situ" - they do not remove the wing but just separate the wing and lift it a few inches away from the body, and do the repair in place.  I won't talk about cost, since it would make me blush, but I can say that part of the repair is a 300 hour job and otherwise the parts cost is almost nothing in comparison ( a spar cap and lots and lots of rivets).

Then in august it was about done and on to annual since annual lapsed during that period.  airmods is a real mccoy serious msc.  They found a massive list of squaks - on a plane that I had thought I was keeping up on in pristine condition.  I mean seriously I am not one to cut corners either for safety of flying, plus I figured this was my special airplane to be treated as such.  At this point I was not surprised that there was a big squak list, but there was a second very very major squak found at this point that I think was absolutely inexcusable was not found sooner (and yes I bear responsibility too for not having seen it and please forgive me for saying this, but I lean too heavily on my mechanic perhaps as I probably looked right at it during oil changes - which he does - but didn't recognize what I was seeing and so never noticed - but it was in plain view - and this time it was just a matter of take off the cowl and look - no special msc skills needed).  The exhaust had been rubbing on the engine cage, creating visible damage to the naked eye, and it was a matter of time before it rubbed through and broke.  This was also something that may have been developing for a long time.  This was not nearly as expensive repair as airmods organized for an aviation welder to come and repair it on the spot by applying a sleeve reinforcement welded over the spot.  There were also several other squaks that were more than minor but less than terrifying.  And of course lots of minor ones.  I had everything found repaired.  Airmods was very reasonable and the main repair on the wing, is nothing short of magician artisan workmanship.

So there is my story - I will have all of my work other than oil changes done at an msc - probably I will go Weber/airmods back and forth so several eyes see my plane.  I have used weber before as a money specific shop for specific things but they are both far away for me - dropping off my plane means renting a car and driving 7 hours home.  This was also a major reason I had not used them before for the annual.

So my airplane is now in wilmar - it once done at airmods, I had her sent back to weepnomore to finish the reseal - which she really needed now because one tank was stripped bare for the repair - plus they are doing the long range tank mod (as I was originally having done back in Jan) - thank you Jose for making that STC.  Since I was no longer on their schedule - but they graciously (Eric and Paul) squeezed me in, I was about 6 weeks in queue there too.  Sooooooo.....I get my airplane back next week I think.  11.5 months after I sent it to weepnomore for a 3 week tank job.  

While in wilmar, I went ahead and asked Bruce Jaeger to do his interiors STC - which he did and it looks fantastic from what I see in pictures.  He was a pleasure to work with and I will report that with pics when I get it back.  Plus he works with SCS the shop that does upholstry in Duluth - they do lots of contract work for Cirrus.  So they re did my seats.  And now I really really need a paint job and I am on the schedule for paint in Middlebury, VT in Jan.  So all of this is making the airplane look new - actually she was due for a refresh look but I was sort of not fully committed to n10933 even though I have had her for 6.5 years now, continuing to wonder if I might upgrade to something - a twin - or whatever - and this decision I took in late Feb to get it repaired was a decision to keep her - so this spruce up is part of that.  She is going to look nice.  But she is going to have a beautiful interior and look pretty scruffy on the outside when I pick her up (next week), since the tank repairs and spar cap repair involved a lot of sanding down the paint to bare metal.

So folks - take it from me - you get what you paid for with an msc.

[Danb]

Erik--Wow, I thought I decided to go to MSC's for lack of quality work by my local A/P, I bought a new 1988 J, had a MSC do work until the warranty ran out the had the local guy, whos also a client, take care of my plane for the next 15 years until I traded up for a new Bravo.

On the prebuy of my J a long list of items some that could have brought it down were found, now I also thought I was meticulous in care, I ended up dropping the agreed upon sale price by about 20 grand, what did I save? At that time I decided only to have annuals and most others things done by a MSC, in the long run other than safety I feel sure will be less money in the long run based on my prior experience.  

[aviatoreb]

51 minutes ago, Danb said:

Erik--Wow, I thought I decided to go to MSC's for lack of quality work by my local A/P, I bought a new 1988 J, had a MSC do work until the warranty ran out the had the local guy, whos also a client, take care of my plane for the next 15 years until I traded up for a new Bravo.

On the prebuy of my J a long list of items some that could have brought it down were found, now I also thought I was meticulous in care, I ended up dropping the agreed upon sale price by about 20 grand, what did I save? At that time I decided only to have annuals and most others things done by a MSC, in the long run other than safety I feel sure will be less money in the long run based on my prior experience.  

Yeah - some lessons you learn the hard way.  I am thankful as I said at the beginning, that it was not the VERY hard way, knock on wood, but just a big hit on the wallet and a major bruising of my ego.  It was a frustrating year flying wise.

On a bright note - this year I flew so little - that well - the lack of direct operating costs does help offset the cost in a substantial way.  I normally fly 150-175 hrs a year which is expensive in a rocket.  And I lowered insurance for 7 months to nonmoving, and cancelled all my data bases, etc.

Thank you Seth Meyers who flew with me twice, and allowed me to keep my IFR continuously legal.  I say legal, because I am planning a few hours of dual before I head home from MN.

[Marauder]

Your reply now explains why you fell off of the grid since we saw you at the Mooney fly-in last December. I am in a similar quandary with my F. The guy who was maintaining my F for the past 18 years was well respected and very thorough. Now I am wondering what he may have missed.


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[N6758N]

10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Your reply now explains why you fell off of the grid since we saw you at the Mooney fly-in last December. I am in a similar quandary with my F. The guy who was maintaining my F for the past 18 years was well respected and very thorough. Now I am wondering what he may have missed.


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Chris,

I was at AirMods a few months back when they were right in the middle of repairing the wing on Erik's plane, I consider myself pretty competent with sheetmetal and I was completely impressed by their work on the spar cap replacement. Those guys aren't afraid to tackle any project! That being said, do you want me to look for corrosion on your plane next time I'm in your hangar? 

[Marauder]

Chris,
I was at AirMods a few months back when they were right in the middle of repairing the wing on Erik's plane, I consider myself pretty competent with sheetmetal and I was completely impressed by their work on the spar cap replacement. Those guys aren't afraid to tackle any project! That being said, do you want me to look for corrosion on your plane next time I'm in your hangar? 

Am I supposed to say NOOOOOOO!? I had the rear seats pulled a number times looking for corrosion over the years. I'm sure there are other locations as well to look at. I've been debating whether to go to back to a MSC at some point. Airmods actually did an annual on my plane a number of years back. Maybe it's time they look again.

Speaking of Erik, I remember he and I spoke about his plane being at Weber's at one point for some work. Wonder if he had any annuals done there.


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[rbridges]

9 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Am I supposed to say NOOOOOOO!? I had the rear seats pulled a number times looking for corrosion over the years. I'm sure there are other locations as well to look at. I've been debating whether to go to back to a MSC at some point. Airmods actually did an annual on my plane a number of years back. Maybe it's time they look again.

Speaking of Erik, I remember he and I spoke about his plane being at Weber's at one point for some work. Wonder if he had any annuals done there.


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I'm kinda going down the same thought process with the corrosion I found under my rear seats.  Hopefully no big deal, but makes me wonder.  BTW, is it a PITA to get the rear seats out?

[Danb]

I dont brlieve so Chris, i thought he kept the local guy doing the work until he had it looked over kinda like i did but my shock wasn't nearly as bad as his, yeah i also was where he got to

[aviatoreb]

48 minutes ago, rbridges said:

I'm kinda going down the same thought process with the corrosion I found under my rear seats.  Hopefully no big deal, but makes me wonder.  BTW, is it a PITA to get the rear seats out?

The corrosion that needed a wing spar replacement was inside the wing near the tanks in my case.

Removing seats is EASY as compared to the PITA of removing a wing, taking a part a wing, unriveting everything, and replacing a spar cap and putting it all back together.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

Am I supposed to say NOOOOOOO!? I had the rear seats pulled a number times looking for corrosion over the years. I'm sure there are other locations as well to look at. I've been debating whether to go to back to a MSC at some point. Airmods actually did an annual on my plane a number of years back. Maybe it's time they look again.

Speaking of Erik, I remember he and I spoke about his plane being at Weber's at one point for some work. Wonder if he had any annuals done there.


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I had been to Weber a few times for a few specific localized tasks - like debugging a gear issue, or another time I had them do rigging on my airplane, but never an extensive inspection.  I wish I had!

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

The corrosion that needed a wing spar replacement was inside the wing near the tanks in my case.

Removing seats is EASY as compared to the PITA of removing a wing, taking a part a wing, unriveting everything, and replacing a spar cap and putting it all back together.

I don't know what I would do if I was living your situation. The Rockets are a rare bird so dealing with the issue makes sense. In my case, an F, it probably would make more sense to strip out all of the avionics and find a donor plane, perhaps a later model J or an early Ovation that needed a heavy dose of avionics upgrading.

Speaking of corrosion, I know we all hope that we never need to contend with it. That said, has there ever been a documented case where the corrosion was serious enough to compromise the airplane to the point of having an accident directly as a result? 

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I don't know what I would do if I was living your situation. The Rockets are a rare bird so dealing with the issue makes sense. In my case, an F, it probably would make more sense to strip out all of the avionics and find a donor plane, perhaps a later model J or an early Ovation that needed a heavy dose of avionics upgrading.

Speaking of corrosion, I know we all hope that we never need to contend with it. That said, has there ever been a documented case where the corrosion was serious enough to compromise the airplane to the point of having an accident directly as a result? 

I heard rumor of a C that broke apart many years ago flying to the bahamas and presumed it was corrosion.

As I said the corrosion found was really just one spot - a spot attack.  If it had been a matter of fixing one spot while the rest of the plane was junk I would have parted out the airplane.  After a lot of deliberation I decided the hull value with the tks, and upgrades, and the personal value, and given it was already the one I wanted (minus corrosion), the thing to do was to fix it as I would take a bigger hit also trying to dump it and replace it with the same.  It took me a serious month to come to that decision.

[Marauder]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I heard rumor of a C that broke apart many years ago flying to the bahamas and presumed it was corrosion.

As I said the corrosion found was really just one spot - a spot attack.  If it had been a matter of fixing one spot while the rest of the plane was junk I would have parted out the airplane.  After a lot of deliberation I decided the hull value with the tks, and upgrades, and the personal value, and given it was already the one I wanted (minus corrosion), the thing to do was to fix it as I would take a bigger hit also trying to dump it and replace it with the same.  It took me a serious month to come to that decision.

I hope I never need to take the month you did. Agonizing over that decision had to be painful. Good news! It's getting behind you. I have been talking to Bruce Jaegar on a regular basis and am ready to take the leap on his Spatial Designs. Heard your plane looks FABULOUS.

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I hope I never need to take the month you did. Agonizing over that decision had to be painful. Good news! It's getting behind you. I have been talking to Bruce Jaegar on a regular basis and am ready to take the leap on his Spatial Designs. Heard your plane looks FABULOUS.

Hi Marauder, Yeah - it was a bummer month.  I ALMOST bought another Mooney, thought about a Baron B55, thought about a Cirrus, a piper cub, and all sorts of other things.  I don't really want any of those other things.  (Well I do want a piper cub as a second plane...someday..but not now).  I just had to close my eyes and so GO!  One thing I have going for me - I got this plane 6 years ago when the market was in terrible shape and I got a fantastic deal.  (Some of you may look at that and think - gee he bought an airplane with corrosion so what kind of deal was that?  Well this corrosion was not that extensive that it likely happened while I owned it).  So all in, it is still not crazy cost I am in for a tks rocket - just not the fantastic deal it used to be.  Anyway, airplanes, if its not one thing, its another.

Yeah - cannot WAIT to see how the interior looks.  I won't post pictures though until paint is done.  Paint starts beginning of Jan. 

Maurader, go for it!

[Hank]

4 hours ago, rbridges said:

I'm kinda going down the same thought process with the corrosion I found under my rear seats.  Hopefully no big deal, but makes me wonder.  BTW, is it a PITA to get the rear seats out?

It's pretty easy getting the back seat out. It's much more difficult getting it back in . . . Or at least that was my experience with the split reclining, fold-forward seat backs (that are still joined down at the bottom). Seems it was the durn seat bottom that was so hard. This time of year, though, working inside the fuse in your hangar won't be a sweat shop, so you have that going for you.

[N6758N]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Am I supposed to say NOOOOOOO!? I had the rear seats pulled a number times looking for corrosion over the years. I'm sure there are other locations as well to look at. I've been debating whether to go to back to a MSC at some point. Airmods actually did an annual on my plane a number of years back. Maybe it's time they look again.

Speaking of Erik, I remember he and I spoke about his plane being at Weber's at one point for some work. Wonder if he had any annuals done there.


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In talking to Dave over at Airmods he told me the corrosion was found by looking up into the wing from the inspection panels on the bottom of the wing aft of the spar. Something that surely had been missed by the previous mechanic over the years. 

[cnoe]

In talking to Dave over at Airmods he told me the corrosion was found by looking up into the wing from the inspection panels on the bottom of the wing aft of the spar. Something that surely had been missed by the previous mechanic over the years. 

My IA does this at every annual (as do I). I'm not trying to suggest that MSCs don't provide oft-needed expertise but I might argue there are many excellent Mooney-proficient A&P/IAs out there who don't run an MSC. It shouldn't require an MSC to see an exhaust pipe rubbing a hole through an engine mount or mouse-droppings in your wings. But there are certainly times when an MSC would be an obvious choice for specialized service/repairs.


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[N6758N]

Just now, cnoe said:

 

My IA does this at every annual (as do I). I'm not trying to suggest that MSCs don't provide oft-needed expertise but I might argue there are many excellent Mooney-proficient A&P/IAs out there who don't run an MSC. It shouldn't require an MSC to see an exhaust pipe rubbing a hole through an engine mount or mouse-droppings in your wings. But there are certainly times when an MSC would be an obvious choice for specialized service/repairs.


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As a Mooney proficient IA who does not run an MSC myself, I agree. I also think that no matter who does your annual it is always good to have a different set of eyes on your plane every few years.  What happened to Erik's plane most likely took place over a relatively short period of time. It looked as though something had got in and quickly attacked the spar cap, especially since it was only on the right side, the L/H spar cap did not suffer from any corrosion, so it may have been hard for the previous mechanic to see. We all look at airplanes a little differently and no two mechanics may see the same thing when doing an annual.   

[Marauder]

As a Mooney proficient IA who does not run an MSC myself, I agree. I also think that no matter who does your annual it is always good to have a different set of eyes on your plane every few years.  What happened to Erik's plane most likely took place over a relatively short period of time. It looked as though something had got in and quickly attacked the spar cap, especially since it was only on the right side, the L/H spar cap did not suffer from any corrosion, so it may have been hard for the previous mechanic to see. We all look at airplanes a little differently and no two mechanics may see the same thing when doing an annual.   

And Terry is better equipped than many Mooney proficient IAs. His observation skills are above average. Here is a picture of him I snapped while he was working on my plane recently.




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[Marauder]

He absolutely pays attention to details!


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[wrench]

My annuals have run around 1400, 1500, 1800, 3000, 4500, and 6000 on my J (not in that year order). I have owner assisted on 3 of 6 years. During the annuals the highest cost drivers were a new fuel selector valve @ ~2200 in the 6k year, replace one aileron push rod (scoring damage that would not polish out and still be to spec. ~1000), no obvious cause found per A&P, nose wheel steering knuckle and dual mag service bulletin. The numbers are rough but representative.

My 2 cents on some perspective. To change the spark plugs in my 75,000 mile 2004 Ford F150 the Ford dealer charged me $587.00 at our local West Michigan shop rate of 85.00 per hour (2013) I think now it's 100+. A quote to replace one cracked exhaust manifold $1100.00 on the same truck.

A&P's, Inspectors and their shops have as much or do I dare say more responsibility than the local auto dealer technicians. I continue to hope that the A&P's that are not even close to getting rich don't all decide to become automotive techs instead, so in the future I can still find people to work and sign off on my middle class aircraft. My first trade/profession was as an Auto Electric Tech. We worked on 50% commission and paid our own benefits. Does the local A&P shop work on the same type of commission? If so they are not probably seeing the shop rates we all get quoted. I know sometimes it seems like we are getting hosed but try and see the other guys viewpoint as well.

Bill
1978 M20J
 

[N6758N]

13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

And Terry is better equipped than many Mooney proficient IAs. His observation skills are above average. Here is a picture of him I snapped while he was working on my plane recently.




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Hey Chris, my glasses aren't that big!