Looking for a good 201

[DC_Mooniac]

So I stumbled onto this website a few weeks ago and have spent many hours reading the many helpful and informative posts. 

I am looking to buy my first plane and was wondering if anyone had any tips about finding a good 201.  I have about 135 hours in 172s and am looking to spend around 80 to 90 K for a nice 201.  As I'd prefer not having to do any upgrades myself in the immediate future, I am looking for a turn-key 201 with a 430, low-mid time engine, autopilot with altitude hold, decent paint and interior, and no corrosion or fuel tank issues.  Also, because I am a first time buyer, I would prefer the convenience of finding a plane somewhat close to where I live, i.e., the Washington, DC area.

I have been looking at trade-a-plane, aso, controller, and a couple other websites and have a couple planes in mind, but thought it would be helpful to see if anyone has heard of any others that are on the market or about to come on the market.  I am hoping to buy in the next few weeks or sooner if the right plane comes along at the right price.

[Jeff_S]

I wish you the best of luck. You may find it difficult to find everything you're looking for in that price range, but you seem to be going to the right sources. Follow all the advice you've no doubt read in these forums: don't scrimp on the pre-buy inspection, be prepared to walk away (as in, don't fall in love with a plane until AFTER the pre-buy!), etc.

If the right plane comes along at the right price, it passes the pre-buy inspection, and you're paying cash, you can purchase a plane in 2-3 weeks' time. As this perfect trifecta seldom appears, be prepared to take a little longer to get your first plane. In fact, if I were to offer any advice, it is simply that: don't be in a rush. There are plenty of planes out there, and even if the love of your life gets scooped up by someone else, there's always another behind it somewhere. Spending some time looking around will help educate you on all the possibilities so that when you DO buy something, you'll feel confident you made the best decision.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: DC_Mooniac

So I stumbled onto this website a few weeks ago and have spent many hours reading the many helpful and informative posts. 

I am looking to buy my first plane and was wondering if anyone had any tips about finding a good 201.  I have about 135 hours in 172s and am looking to spend around 80 to 90 K for a nice 201.  As I'd prefer not having to do any upgrades myself in the immediate future, I am looking for a turn-key 201 with a 430, low-mid time engine, autopilot with altitude hold, decent paint and interior, and no corrosion or fuel tank issues.  Also, because I am a first time buyer, I would prefer the convenience of finding a plane somewhat close to where I live, i.e., the Washington, DC area.

I have been looking at trade-a-plane, aso, controller, and a couple other websites and have a couple planes in mind, but thought it would be helpful to see if anyone has heard of any others that are on the market or about to come on the market.  I am hoping to buy in the next few weeks or sooner if the right plane comes along at the right price.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Or buy something really cheap and make it how you want it for a total of $90,000.  This one is in my backyard if you want me to go take a look for you.

Ditch the entire panel for a couple grand, buy yourself a 430W, SL30, and PMA8000B audio panel.  Everything will be new, under warranty, and the 1977 models have a nice useful load.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1977-MOONEY-M20J-201/1183911.htm?dlr=1

If purchased correctly, I think you could have a really nice plane for $80,000.  Need to check what the fuel bladders did to fuel capacity, though.

Texas is a good place to buy a Mooney...good MSCs for prebuy and all the support you could need.  Get the prebuy at Don Maxwell or Dugosh with seller paying airworthiness squawks, you paying the base labor.

PS...As you can tell, I like to take a plane and make it EXACTLY how I want it.

[Seth]

In fact, Freeway Airport has recently fixed up a 201 they purcahsed about a year and half ago, N201RF - I think that's the tail number, I could be wrong.  It's a '78 M20J that now has a 430, an STEC Autopilot, and more.  I'm not sure if it's been painted yet, but you may be able make a deal for it.  Stan owns the airport, the MSC, and the 201.  Tommy is the lead mechanic, and Chris, Sean, Bruce, or anyone else in the shop can be very helpful with any questions you have.

Contact info:

The Mooney Service Center at W00 - Freeway - 301-262-6544

Freeway Avaition - the FBO on the field - 301-390-6424

If you drive - Freeway is off of RT 50 about 7 miles from the beltway toward Annapolis.  If you want to fly in, PM me.

Good luck with your search

 

-Seth

[GeorgePerry]

DC

Parker makes a very good point.  If you’re looking for completely turn-key you'll have to pay for it....but if you’re like most of us and you'll own the plane for many years, it’s OK to buy a less expensive bird that needs some sprucing up.  If you chose to purchase a plane that needs some work, begin with the safety / consumables items such as fixing oil leaks, replacing wear items such as the shock discs, fuel and oil lines, scat hose, brakes, new plexi etc.  The list can go on and on….  After you have a solid squawk free platform from which to begin, you can formulate a plane to make improvements.  Below are “Ball Park” prices for “big ticket” items are as follows.  You can spend more or less…these #’s reflect work done by a reputable shop, and not necessarily the local A&P.

 

Paint = 7-10K

Interior = 7-10K with a company like Airtex or 18K for a Mooney Factory job (and the factory interiors are NICE!)

Engine overhaul = 25-30K (Penn Yan, Mattituck etc.  Factory Lycoming overhaul or rebuild will be more)

Panel upgrade (all digital with single Garmin 430) = 15K and up…the sky’s the limit with avionics.

 

Again, these numbers are ball park and for reference only.  Your mileage might vary.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: GeorgePerry

DC

Parker makes a very good point.  If you’re looking for completely turn-key you'll have to pay for it....but if you’re like most of us and you'll own the plane for many years, it’s OK to buy a less expensive bird that needs some sprucing up.  If you chose to purchase a plane that needs some work, begin with the safety / consumables items such as fixing oil leaks, replacing wear items such as the shock discs, fuel and oil lines, scat hose, brakes, new plexi etc.  The list can go on and on….  After you have a solid squawk free platform from which to begin, you can formulate a plane to make improvements.  Below are “Ball Park” prices for “big ticket” items are as follows.  You can spend more or less…these #’s reflect work done by a reputable shop, and not necessarily the local A&P.

 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

 Buy with an annual and seller paying airworthy squawks and you won't have to mess with the safety expenses...

[Parker_Woodruff]

Parker

I completely agree.  I suppose I should have caveated my comments with, what might be airworthy and pass annual inspection might not be up to the prospective owners standards.  There were lots of items on my M20F that "passed" annual but I replaced them at the first opportunity regardless.  I suppose you could ask the MSC to perform a very critical pre-buy/annual and flag items that are passable but will need attention in the next few years. 

 

[DC_Mooniac]

Thanks everyone for their thoughts.  As it turns out, I learned to fly at Freeway and am a big fan.  I'll have to follow up with Stan about the 201 they may have.  

One thing I have being trying to figure out is what exactly is considered an airworthy squawk?  I assume I should insist that the seller agree to pay for all airworthy squawks in the purchase agreement?  If I find what seems to be a good plane, should I have my MSC start with a pre-buy, and if it goes well initially, have them do a full annual?  How would this typically work -- I would pay for the labor, but the seller would pay for all airworthy squawks?  I assume this would be the best way to avoid the exceedingly expensive initial annual?

Regarding future pricing for Mooneys, it is also my impression as well that prices will start going up again.  But is it possible that the prices flatten out or possibly even continue to decline due to Mooney possibly going out of business and how plastic planes like the Cirrus SR20 are coming down in price and possibly competing more with older vintage Mooney 201s?  Not that I was tempted, but I can imagine that some buyers would be attracted to a plane that is less than 10 years old with dual 430s and a big MFD on an SR20 for around 120K.

By the way, Parker, love the pictures of your plane.  I have noticed the listing for 201EQ, but was turned off a bit by the damage history, available at http://report.myairplane.com/index.php.  The 201 that All American has for 105K is also tempting and has pretty much what I want, but, especially with the 8+% sales tax, it would be a bit of a stretch for me.     

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: DC_Mooniac

One thing I have being trying to figure out is what exactly is considered an airworthy squawk?  I assume I should insist that the seller agree to pay for all airworthy squawks in the purchase agreement?  If I find what seems to be a good plane, should I have my MSC start with a pre-buy, and if it goes well initially, have them do a full annual?  How would this typically work -- I would pay for the labor, but the seller would pay for all airworthy squawks?  I assume this would be the best way to avoid the exceedingly expensive initial annual?

Regarding future pricing for Mooneys, it is also my impression as well that prices will start going up again.  But is it possible that the prices flatten out or possibly even continue to decline due to Mooney possibly going out of business and how plastic planes like the Cirrus SR20 are coming down in price and possibly competing more with older vintage Mooney 201s?  Not that I was tempted, but I can imagine that some buyers would be attracted to a plane that is less than 10 years old with dual 430s and a big MFD on an SR20 for around 120K.

By the way, Parker, love the pictures of your plane.  I have noticed the listing for 201EQ, but was turned off a bit by the damage history, available at http://report.myairplane.com/index.php.  The 201 that All American has for 105K is also tempting and has pretty much what I want, but, especially with the 8+% sales tax, it would be a bit of a stretch for me.     

[M016576]

I wouldn't be too critical of the more modern aircraft... the Cirrus SR20 is a very nice plane.  It may be heresy on this board to say this, but if I were to take my pick between my 1980 mooney, and a 2005 SR20, I'd take the SR20.  higher useful load, similar cruise speeds, and a newer airplane (which means less maintenance).... hard to beat that.  But the fact of the matter is that the cirrus aircraft still cost 25-75% more than a mooney (and that makes them out of my price range).  But like George and Parker have said: you get what you pay for.  Spend time looking, get a great pre-buy/annual and be prepared to walk away (potentially with some cost already sunk into the plane to get it inspected).

-JoB

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: DC_Mooniac

I have noticed the listing for 201EQ, but was turned off a bit by the damage history, available at http://report.myairplane.com/index.php.  The 201 that All American has for 105K is also tempting and has pretty much what I want, but, especially with the 8+% sales tax, it would be a bit of a stretch for me.     

[Ned Gravel]

DC:

I am going to chime in here and let you in on the process I used in 2004 to finally get my own E model.  Whole thing started in May 2004 and was completed in February 2005.

I looked seriously at eight Mooneys.  All C models or E models, because that part of my mission profile and budget requirements had already been established.  That means I made offers on all eight (one at a time of course).

Six of the eight sellers agreed to the same conditions as have been discussed here, and then I made the deposits (either in escrow or to the seller or to the agent).  I did not pursue anything further with the other two. Then I selected the shops to do the pre-purchase inspection (PPI) for each aircraft - three in Canada and three in the lower 48.  Each shop understood that they worked for me and they were to report to me, not the seller. 

There were some strange results.  First one had two prop strikes and the teardown of the engine for the second one was not in the logs.  Stopped that inspection before they touched the aircraft and got my deposit back.

Second one had about $15,000 in airworthiness issues that the seller refused to believe, even after the shop showed them to him.  Got my deposit back and walked.

Third one had rusted longerons (part of the steel frame) and the seller said he knew a guy, who knew a guy who could fix them.  I did not try and disuade him, but I got my deposit back and walked.

Fourth one had about $11,000 in airworthiness issues that the seller did not want to repair.  To quote the shop: "Shes been rode hard and put away wet."  Got my deposit back and walked.

Fifth one demonstrated the signs of a collapsed nose gear that wasn't in the logs.  Never did get the seller to respond to that one and stopped payment on the deposit cheque.  Walked.

Sixth one ended the PPI with about $15,000 in airworthiness items.  Seller was angry and I was about ready to walk again when the shop invited him to come and see.  He was shocked at what they had found and he eventually lowered his price to cover the costs of bringing the aircraft back into compliance.  I added another $6,000 in upgrades on the spot and two months later I finally started training on C-FSWR.

Lessons I learned in doing this?  (Or "How to spend $1,000 and save $60,000")

1. 
   
2. Get a good pre-purchase done.  Ensure the shop knows they work for you.
   
3. Walk away from sellers that do not want to do this as the folks on this board have described.  Aircraft might look good, but it is a bag of trouble waiting for you to open it up.
   

Good luck in your search.

[thinwing]

Well my deal got really strange at the end where the seller refused to pay for any air worthy items and at the end was very slow in sending in bill of sale.What I realized ,was he was suffering sellers remorse for accepting a lower asking price and was trying to bait me into walking away from deal...this all occurred while a/c was in escrow...somtimes you have to hangin there if you think you have found a keeper...Its been a year and I havent seen a better example than what i ended up with,,kpc

[laytonl]

This Mooney was listed for sale on this site recently.

 http://www.mooney201forsale.com/

It looks like a fairly decent airplane.  The interior is butt ugly (sorry Randy) and the price is too high (sorry again) but for around $75-80k could be a good airplane.

Good luck in your search,

Lee

[OR75]

http://www.aso.com/Aircraft_For_Sale.aspx?act_id=Single_Engine_Pistons

I found this to be a good site to see what is out there ... I am sure everyone most on here came across this website.  

 

[danb35]

Probably the most comprehensive site is http://www.globalplanesearch.com/.  It pulls from all the other listing sites that I'm aware of, with the exception of Trade-a-Plane.

[fantom]

Quote: JimR

Huh? ....Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that Cirrus' are fine airplanes and they can obviously beat a Mooney any day in many categories, but speed, useful load, and maintenance costs are not three of them.

 

 

[steelerp]

Having bought mine in June of 2009,  I can tell you that any 201 you find under 100k will most likely need something on your list.  All the airplanes I looked at had multiple issues at the 85k pricepoint.  I finally stumbled on a brand new listing in trade-a-plane, called him and he agreed to hold.  Bought it a few weeks later but he was firm on the price.

Do NOT under estimate how much radio work will set you back.  My plan was to spend 11k for a 430 and be done.  When I looked at what it "really" was going to take, I wound up dropping 21K to clean up the junk and get reliable radios.

The Aspen installed this year was done because the prices dropped on installations, both by the shop and the vendor.  Total investment in the panel now - 31K

Beware of spending too little money on an airplane.  The one at All American must have some issues.  The guy who owned mine before I did thought he had bought a bargain.  Unfortunately,  he wound up doing the tanks, an engine, the prop, the glass...right at 51k (I have his old receipts) between Don Maxwell and Wilmar.

Hope this helps.   Rick

[DaV8or]

Quote: steelerp

Having bought mine in June of 2009,  I can tell you that any 201 you find under 100k will most likely need something on your list.  All the airplanes I looked at had multiple issues at the 85k pricepoint.

[231Pilot]

When I bought mine (late 2006), prices were higher than now, but the airplane was well equipped.  Still, that hasn't stopped me from dropping another 10-15 amus in purchase and installation of an MFD, WSI weather, engine monitor, and a new transponder.  IMO, the only plane that is exactly how you want it is the one that you select and pay for the features you want it to have (paint, interior, avionics, prop, overhaul, etc.)

 

Merry Christmas fellow Mooneyspacers! (and if you do not celebrate Christmas, a joyous religeous holiday of your choosing....;-)  )

[John Pleisse]

I own one of he better refurbished Mooney 201's in the country, based Frederick, MD. It is Weber maintained, loaded with STEC and Garmin avionics, excellent P&I, less than 500 SFNEW engine, 3900TT and loaded with goodies. $207k invested, 12 year ownership, no excuses. I have been trying to move up to a Baron or A36, but I have been disappointed with Mooney values, so I have held on. The AC is in the photo gallery on this site. "N4352H". You may e-mail me directly for specs and a viewing. john@voicejohn.com If it doesn't sell by March 1st, it is going in for annual and a G500 install. After that, I doubt I'd ever sell it.

[M016576]

Quote: fantom

Huh? ....Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that Cirrus' are fine airplanes and they can obviously beat a Mooney any day in many categories, but speed, useful load, and maintenance costs are not three of them.

 

 

You are so right, Jim. Cirrus maintenance cost are much higher, as are insurance costs, and trying to find people to work on them, or heaven forbid, repair the body, is quite a challenge.

I'll take a '80 J over an '05 SR 20 any day of the week.

[N9937c]

What you REALLY need to do is ask some of the independant shops what they think of the plastic airplanes. their reply will make Jim's points seem like a cakewalk. Most any type damage that i have seen that would be 30 -40 hours of a good sheetmetal mans work would be replace the Cirrus airframe with a new one.

larry