Chinese Buyer for Mooney?

[eldeano]

I didn't read all of the posts so this may have been mentioned, but a Chinese company is rumored to be buying Cirrus or at least part of it. Jet certification is costing to much. Like a lot of American companies and States and local Governments etc., when the economy was good the orders and money were coming in they overextended themselves. Economy goes bad and they can't stay solvent.

 

Also Cirrus has wife appeal.  Interior more like a car, a red handle that will pop out a parachute etc.. We know as pilots a parachute is nice but will not help you for the majority accidents. But looking at the posts recently on Squirrels story, the other half has a big influence on what we buy. Look how much attention the icon has gotten. Look at apple. Design and sex appeal has a lot to do with a persons decisions, whether they are practical or not.  

 

Also I wouldn't get to paranoid about foreign ownership, the Japanese were buying up america in the 80's payed to much and sold it back to venture capitalists then Michael Milken came along and we were selling everything to the middle easterners, now the middle easterners are hurting and have been selling things off to hedge funds and venture cap. companies, then Wall Street came along, now we are selling to the Chinese. Maybe if we could control our own companies greed, bring back more conservative accounting practices and regulations not influenced by lobbyists we could get on more of a steady pace and keep our own companies and manufacturing.

Just Saying, 

PS looking forward to be able to buy Mooney parts at my local Walmart!

[Dan]

Does anyone know where this rumor originated? The source? The validity? I quite wonder if its only that.. a rumor with nothing behind it.

There is a growing concept in Chinese business of higher quality and long term business with the foreign devils. The old school concept of a one time payout for ripping off the foolish US business man is being replaced with the idea that there can be a more than one time payout by actually delivering a quality product repeatedly. Its a change in concept from a throw away culture.  Though still tricky, quality is very possible.   It needs to be well managed, and the correct business partner needs to be found.

I am asking myself reading this thread.. where is Mooney going now? Would a takeover by Chinese, or anyone else for that matter, help the future? One might argue it would. 

Dan

[scottfromiowa]

I would LOVE to see Mooney bought by the Chinese.  I would love to see them do the welding on the tubing and manufacture of components that would be shipped to Kerrville and assembled...But I don't want a big bore plane.  I want a 201 with modern avionics and the engine to have electronic controls.  We can't compete with Chinese labor...and I want new Mooney's that I can possibly afford in another 10 years (used).  Let the US do assembly, parts distribution and sales/marketing.  Let the Chinese fabricate.

AND LET LIABILITY tail for aviation stop being ridiculous in the US.  How much do bladders cost?  REALLY?....

On second thought I can't even afford a 1985 J...who am I kidding...?  I'm suddenly hungry for General TSO's chicken....

[fantom]

After 16 years I still sometimes just let my Mooney sit outside the hanger, before pushing her in, and admire the lines. Can't do that with an SR-22.

In 1993, the factory was selling new J's for about $200K, and hoping to break even. Mooney proved is wasn't a successful $600 a plane company, and who wants to compete wit the big bore guys. The J has it all over an SR-20, and could probably be produced and sold for $300K, if they can sell 60 to 80 a year. Manufacturing engineers, not marketing and sales people need to be calling the shots.

I kinda hope that's what the new owner's are.

Mooney people like to go fast and they (we) are frugal with fuel, with parts, with everything. Stay with what made you successful back in the day, when the economy starts up, but have ALL the plans in place now. G1000's are for dentists who buy planes, not pilots who by planes.

 

[OR75]

I am really curious to see if indeed the Chinese have an interest in Mooney or if tis it just rumor and / or wishful thinking 

Maybe a pity that this country trains too many lawyers and not  enough engineers.   Nothing against lawyers, just thinking that the right balance is needed to move forward ...  

[DaV8or]

Well, there it is. It's unanimus. The forum has spoken. The Mooney is the fastest, most efficient and sexiest airplane out there.

Too bad the folks that actually had the money to buy a brand new airplane didn't think so.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Dan

Does anyone know where this rumor originated? The source? The validity? I quite wonder if its only that.. a rumor with nothing behind it.

[flight2000]

Quote: DaV8or

Well, there it is. It's unanimus. The forum has spoken. The Mooney is the fastest, most efficient and sexiest airplane out there.

Too bad the folks that actually had the money to buy a brand new airplane didn't think so.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: flight2000

Dave,

I think those with money and little flying skill fell in love with the ballistic parachute recovery system (not in all cases, but most I'd say).  Simple marketing scheme, get yourself in trouble, pull the chute and you float back to the ground...  How else can we explain the higher than normal insurance rates for the SR22 series and it can't be because of the higher hull value.  Maybe I'm worng on that aspect.

Brian

[DaV8or]

Quote: flight2000

I think those with money and little flying skill fell in love with the ballistic parachute recovery system (not in all cases, but most I'd say). 

[flight2000]

Quote: DaV8or

Yep. And those that had money and flying skills bought twins and turbines. In the $500k - $700k market, the Mooney just doesn't have enough appeal to buyers in this price range.

[jetmech1972]

Those lovely parachutes have a cost, 10 amu every 10 years!!! They are a time limit part...

[Vref]

Quote: jetmech1972

Those lovely parachutes have a cost, 10 amu every 10 years!!! They are a time limit part...

[PTK]

Did anyone in this forum ever wonder WHY do our very own American icons, of which Mooney is sadly,  only one example, end up reaching a peak or an acme and then they decline.  IMO it is  COSTS. WHY does a Mooney have to cost so much? Seems to me its because WE are killing it by all the rules and regulations we impose on the industry.  HOW MUCH does a tubular structure with some aluminum NEED to cost?  HOW MUCH does a four cylinder VW engine need to cost?  What fraction of the price of a new J let's say goes directly to liability related costs? i.e to make the insurances and lawyers happy?  I don't know the answer but I'd like to know?  Maybe an analysis needs to be done.  If the cost was down to realistic levels then more people would buy airplanes! The costs would be spread out over more airplanes rather than fewer.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but I am saying that we have over regulated yet another American industry to the point of imminent collapse.   The Chinese will do what we have not been able to do.  You want to fly? Fly but accept personal responsibility and the inherent risk. Don't come back crying, ie looking to sue somebody, if you have a mishap.

We have ourselves to blame.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jetmech1972

Those lovely parachutes have a cost, 10 amu every 10 years!!! They are a time limit part...

[Geoff]

Since I started this thread, I thought I would address those with questions of the source.  Let me be clear this is purely my speculation and not attributable to anyone else.  However, I have had conversations with people in Kerville (who work at the airport) unassociated with MAC that have seen an unusually larger number of Asian folks around recently.  Also, some select workers apparently have been asked to return to work after the new year.  

 Combine this with the other news recently about Continental and my mind quickly asks the question I originally posted.  What if Mooney is bought by the Chinese?  Will it happen? I have no idea.  I am very confident that the Chinese are adding assets/investments in the aviation/aerospace industries and I believe they are looking to buy a manufacturer of a FAA/Euro certified aircraft to minimize the cost associated with certification and get buy the technology cheap instead of developing it from scratch internally.  Insert your favorite manufacturer here (C, B, P, Mooney).   

They are learning from Cessna (skycatcher) about the quality of manufacturing standards necessary to compete/sell aviation products.  This knowledge will soon by used to accquire andproduce or develop a competing aircraft whichever is cheaper.  This is a common strategy used all industrial knowledge transfers.  Boeing never outsources the component manufacture of their airfoils for exactly this reason.

There you have it.  I firmly belive that the purchase is a possiblility, and wanted to hear how the most loyal customers in the GA market would react.  Sorry if I caused anyone any undue concern.

[Jeff_S]

Well, I guess it's good we've all got a place to rant about this, and clearly no one on this forum is going to say anything negative about the Mooney product overall. We all love our birds..and yes, sometimes we go out to the airport with no intention of flying, but merely to pet them affectionately and admire their gracious lines.

But let's not confuse that with running a business. To those who think quality can only be manufactured in America, I merely point to the American auto industry which only now is starting to get back to levels of style and quality that they ceded to the Japanese decades ago. Lot's of economic and business reasons for it which are well known, but let's not get too high on our horse about "only in the USA." The truth is, quality manufacturing can be done in many places these days. How many folks have an American-built flat screen TV in their house? (Answer: none, I think, but I may be wrong about that.)

At the end of the day, everyone will have their opinion about which management decision at any stage of the Mooney Aircraft Company's lifecycle will have lead to the current situation, but unless you were there at the time, and facing the same business pressures as that management team, then it's all just armchair quarterbacking. And at the end of the day, running any enterprise is not too distant an exercise from gambling; you have to see the future as best you can, but ultimately you have to make a bet. And sometimes that bet is wrong.

So I think it's counter-productive to be too critical of any past decisions. I recognize even the more angry posts here are actually just representative of a great love for this product and desire to see it soar again in full glory. But even if that doesn't happen, it in no way diminishes the intrinsic value of our EXISTING planes to us. If you bought a Mooney in hopes of reselling and making a profit, that was gambling of a different sort! But if you bought one because of the benefits it provides to you, that's not going away anytime soon. As my A/P tells me over and over, with the exception of just a few parts, it's all just sheet metal and engine components that are easy to find. If the community can still keep a venerable, but much smaller, fleet of Grumman Cheetah/Tigers (or pick any other older model) going strong, there will be no problem keeping our Mooneys in the air.

[docket]

I don't care who owns the Company as long as there is a Company.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Geoff

Since I started this thread, I thought I would address those with questions of the source.  Let me be clear this is purely my speculation and not attributable to anyone else.

[donshapansky]

As Don Maxwell explained it to me that the past several Mooney CEO's all announced grandios plans to outsource many of the components made in house by hand, one after another they came to the rude awakening it was not possible. No one was found that could assemble the pieces, it took the artisans from the Kerville area with the skills they alone have aquired over time to make these very unique pieces, especially the components in the landing gear and flight controls that made of welded 4130 tubular stock, he showed me a few parts that appeared to be quite simple until he pointed out the great detail of the shaping and included angles that were not obvious until you studied the piece.

There are solutions to those type of problems but not without a of lot recertification and redesign, which may be the right time to redo the landing gear, increase interior room, so that larger props could be installed to really make use of 310 hp Turbocharged engines and maybe a 2 psi pressurized cabin option etc. etc.

I admire any investors who will step up to the plate in these economic times from anywhere in the world! Especially when this particular market segment is so weak, with little immediate prospect of recovery. Does anyone think Mooney could sell 100 - 150 airplanes per annum for the next 3 - 5 yrs? And don't give me the "$200,000 J model is answer", it's not, as born out by the SR20 Cirrus sales history. Cessna has that market to themselves, that's just the brutal reality of the Retail side of the market.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: donshapansky

Does anyone think Mooney could sell 100 - 150 airplanes per annum for the next 3 - 5 yrs?

[donshapansky]

So then if it's 210 airplanes over 3 yrs you can't afford to recertify a whole bunch of changes to the airframe and still  get a return on investment that would rival other oportunities in the world market place. That's a small picture of the limitations that any would be investor is going to be faced with! Not ver enticing is it? I admire anyone who will give this industry consideration and after a sober look will still proceed to take the risk!

[DaV8or]

Quote: donshapansky

No one was found that could assemble the pieces, it took the artisans from the Kerville area with the skills they alone have aquired over time to make these very unique pieces, especially the components in the landing gear and flight controls that made of welded 4130 tubular stock, he showed me a few parts that appeared to be quite simple until he pointed out the great detail of the shaping and included angles that were not obvious until you studied the piece.

[OR75]

 are there enough Mooneys w/w for MAC to prosper / keep healthy with parts, and STCs ?

[GeorgePerry]

I wonder if Mooney could change the fuselage (from a skin over tube) to an all composite clamshell design....i.e. Keep the mooney design lines, aerodynamics and handling characteristics but change the underpinnings to somthing more suited for rapid lower cost mass production. 

I'm sure the FAA would have to be involved to re-certify the design but I've got to think it should be fairly straight forward since "the air" wouldn't know the difference and swithcing from metal to composite would not affect the handling or aerodynmics.