Cluster Gauge replacement (CGR-30C)

[Conrad]

Well it's happened again, my beautiful aircraft is grounded. This time I lost the oil temperature reading on the cluster gauge. It had been a bit intermittent, but I never considered it a safety of flight issue because I had a complete separate oil temperature probe and reading on my EDM700. Once it died completely there was no ignoring it, so I found a replacement unit and had it installed. Unfortunately even though it came from a maintenance shop, the time it spent out of an aircraft seems to have taken its toll - the right tank fuel needle sticks on full. Drat!

I'm working with Kelly instruments to have the two units I now own repaired, however they told me that parts are no longer available and seeing as mine is 1964 original it seems unreasonable to expect it to provide extended periods of worry-free operation. I figure since I plan to own this airplane for a significant amount of time any steps to reduced maintenance costs on these old electronics would offset some of the cost of a pretty new toy.

The real win though is the discovery that the CGR-30C can do the job I need without opening a huge panel-reorganization can of worms. I was told by the sales representative that he'd not heard of anybody configuring the instrument in the way that I requested, but that it's perfectly feasible. The configuration will look a lot like the picture here: http://www.emapa.aero/Electronics-International-CGR-30C-Primary-p/cgr-30c-primary.htm, except that instead of having MP on the right arc gauge I will use that space to fit in two more bar indicators. 5 bar indicators will take over for five of the cluster indicators, and amps can move to one of the slots on the bottom of the instrument that is numeric only. I'd like to install a fuel flow transducer at the same time and use the remaining bar indicator for that. Tach time will move to the second page, and the old resistive fuel level meters will stay.

So, on to my questions:

Given that I'd like to reuse the RPM gauge's spot, is there enough space behind the panel in the RPM gauge location given the tubular component sitting behind the panel? See Bob Belville's plane for reference: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/18480-panel-upgrade-week-1/?do=findComment&comment=271489.

Has anyone else gone this route, or considered it? Does anyone foresee problems or hidden costs that I'm not anticipating?

Anyone have dibs on the repaired cluster gauges once I no longer have a need for them?

[carusoam]

Good news...  You are abandoning the devil you know for a new one that...

There have been a few CGRs installed in Mooneys over the last year or two.  You may want to search to see if any pluses or minuses come out of the pages...

It is a nice compact display to put certified data right in front of the pilot.

Making changes to the display would have to take some strong reasoning to want it.  It appears to me, the current layout has everything that other pilots want.  Make sure you keep the word 'certified' in your discussion with the salesman.  He might have some restrictions or serious costs if it is going to be used as a primary gauge in a certified plane.

It has been a challenge for pilots to get things to work correctly on these new fangled electronic type displays.  MP and FP are challenging because their sources aren't very stable for measuring.  You may see some things called dampers or something like that may be needed.  Sometimes the program may need adjustments to act as a dampener.

briefly, make sure it works before changing the layout.  The devil you know...

Good luck, just keep both eyes open,

-a-

[Ned Gravel]

Thanks for bringing this up Conrad.

I just recently asked Clarence to replace my waggle arm tach with an EI electronic gauge.  Since I am also looking to switch over to something better than the little instrument sixpack piece of ____ parked next to my prop governer, and if this CGR 30C can pick up all of that, then I can easily replace the current one with a CGR 30C for about the same as I paid for my JPI 700 (which I can continue to use).  The only thing I would need to put in place of the tach arc on the CGR 30C is the fuel pressure bar, to allow me to replace the current combined MAP/fuel pressure gauge.  

As for fuel flow, the JPI I have now has the fuel flow capability, but I have not installed the transducers to make use of it. Like you, my fuel gauges are also off and I would like to get them fixed too.  The right one does not read over 3/4 of a tank and the left one does not read less than 1/4 of a tank.  I have used time to gauge my fuel since I bought the airplane.  I would like to change that, although experience tells me that the time method (based on a really good knowledge of fuel consumption rates in different flight regimes) is still the safest thing to do.  

My preferred solution is the JPI 900, but that is currently a little beyond my reach.

[Conrad]

1 hour ago, Ned Gravel said:

The only thing I would need to put in place of the tach arc on the CGR 30C is the fuel pressure bar, to allow me to replace the current combined MAP/fuel pressure gauge.  

Yeah you could do that I think if you're willing to put fuel flow somewhere else. Personally I like the idea of replacing RPM because I've already heard praises sung for the improved accuracy of digital tachometers, and because the pressure based instruments seem like simpler mechanisms. Plus I love the two handed instrument; it's so much more aircraft-y than the RPM/tach.

Is your panel setup what's depicted here? http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/27593-panel-as-it-is-today-right-side/ If so, where did your RPM go?

[Conrad]

And now also carusoam says the analog readings are better for FP and MP, and nobody argues with him 

[Marauder]

And now also carusoam says the analog readings are better for FP and MP, and nobody argues with him 

I'm completely digital for all of my gauges. A year before I removed the factory instrument strip and had it replaced with a JPI 900 handling all those functions, I converted my analog RPM and MP to the EI versions.

I did this because an avionics shop screwed up my analog tach by installing a replacement tach cable that was too long and destroyed the mechanism.I love the EI gauges and would have went with the CGR if it had a bigger display. Don't be afraid of the digital readouts, you will find them just as easy to set MP and RPM as the analog versions.

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[Ned Gravel]

Marauder:

I think someone has already pointed this out but your EI tach is reading 2410 and the JPI is reading 2430.  Does this cause a problem?  Which one do you accept over the other?  Is the difference even significant?

[Ned Gravel]

Conrad:

I agree with you about the digital gauges (sorry Carusoam).  Digital instruments tend to have a lot more stability than analog ones by orders of magnitude in precision, but they can drift more over time.  (I work in measurement science.)

The panel stopped looking that that when I bought Bob Belville's KR 87 so he could pay for the upgrade of his sparkling new panel.  

It looks like this now.  There is a little bit of interfering reflection in the photo but on the right (top) is the MAP/fuel pressure gauge.  On the right bottom is the tach.

[Marauder]

Marauder:

I think someone has already pointed this out but your EI tach is reading 2410 and the JPI is reading 2430.  Does this cause a problem?  Which one do you accept over the other?  Is the difference even significant?

I usually see no more than 10 to 20 RPM difference between the two. Something that would be hard to tell the difference even on an analog gauge.

Since I've owned my plane for 25 years I have gotten really accustomed to looking to the far right for the MP and RPM, so I usually fly by the EI gauges.

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[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Ned Gravel said:

Conrad:

 

The panel stopped looking that that when I bought Bob Belville's KR 87 so he could pay for the upgrade of his sparkling new panel.  

 

 

Hum, I sold it to Canadian, Steve Lubard, who had me ship it to his sister in CA. One of your aliases, Ned?  

I'm delighted to see it found a good home!

[Ned Gravel]

Bob:

Hmm, it is probably because the person I bought it from was also from Ohio (or maybe Indiana).  Since I am currently in Myanmar, this is going to bug me until I get home and pull the logs.

 

[Bob_Belville]

13 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

Bob:

Hmm, it is probably because the person I bought it from was also from Ohio (or maybe Indiana).  Since I am currently in Myanmar, this is going to bug me until I get home and pull the logs.

 

Ned, how did you learn it was my unit? I shipped it to: Stephen Lubard, Woodland Hills, CA. He told me that was his sister's address and he would pick it up there. As I recall he lived in one of the Western Provinces. 

[Ned Gravel]

Bob:

I think that is because you had it for sale at the same time as the one I bought.  I do remember that much.

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

Bob:

I think that is because you had it for sale at the same time as the one I bought.  I do remember that much.

Might be a coincidence. I sold mine on EBAY (for $880) and shipped it to CA in November 2012.

[Conrad]

Just ADFs passing in the night.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Conrad

[captainglen]

  The engine cluster in all Mooneys are cheap and unreliable and it is probably better not to try to replace them. LASER may have some new old stock units but you will pay through the nose and in a few years you will be back in the same boat. My oil temp has long since failed and been replaced by a separate TSO gauge But I am still getting used to looking up and to the right to read oil temp.. My fuel gauges now have to be tapped to verify their reading because they are a little sticky. Another problem is that even if they work perfectly they are 90 degree sweep gauges.

  The good news is there is a solution which I myself intend to implement this year. UMA makes a series of TSO gauges with a 1 1/2" square face and 270 degree sweep. If properly arrayed they have the exact dimensions if the cluster assembly. The 270 degree sweep makes them 3 times more accurate that the gauges they will be replacing. The one drawback is that the ammeter is non TSO but as an A&P I have installed a PMA Davitron density altitude / OAT instrument in my plane with an approved 337. I will use the connector from one of my junk cluster gauges so that when wired as an assembly I wont have to disturb the original aircraft harness.

  Of course as an A&P with extensive avionics experience it is easy for me but for you you will have to find and A&P with some confidence. The gauges run between $208 and $225 each for a total price of around $1,200. Lighting and custom markings available. The alternative as taking your chances with used cluster gauges.

[Guest]

These have been installed by some.

http://mitchellproducts.com/modular-gauges/

Clarence

[Jim Peace]

On June 6, 2016 at 5:03 PM, M20Doc said:

These have been installed by some.

http://mitchellproducts.com/modular-gauges/

Clarence

Are these legal to replace in my C in the USA? 

[Andy95W]

Yes, but as always it's all about the paperwork. Sabremech (David) did his and will send you a copy of the 337 to talk to your mechanic about and see if he is willing to work with your local FSDO.

 

[captainglen]

"Are these legal to replace in my C in the USA?" The answer is a conditional yes. The Mitchell Modular Gauges are PMA, not TSO. TSO gauges meet the FAA technical standards and can be installed in any aircraft. Any mechanic can install a PMA component fill out a 337 but a IA must approve the 337 before it is submitted. Technically the IA is required to determine that the installed component meets or exceeds the manufacturers specifications. In other words you will need an IA with some guts. I installed only one PMA unit in my plane there are no others previously installed but my IA trusts my avionics abilities as an A&P.