Seriously considering selling my E to buy a J

[nels]

I've been looking at J models and have pretty well decided to buy one. Since I'm not a person of great wealth I think it is best to sell my existing airplane, a 66 E model, before buying the next one. I really don't want to own two at the same time. The next problem is figuring what my plane is really worth which will help determine how much I can spend on the J.

So here is the description of my plane: it's a 66 E model with about 6200 hrs on the air frame.

The engine has right on 1500 hrs since the major however there is a note in the log book which accounts for a case replacement which required new cam and lifters and main bearing and a short time later pistons, rods and bearings and cylinders were overhauled along with other items. Much of this work was done by Don Maxwell. The recommendation in the logs says the TBO for the engine should be considered at a later total time which equates to more than 1000 hrs before TBO might be considered. 

The paint is descent probably a 5 or 6

glass is good

The interior is leather and is pretty nice, probably a 7. nice carpet, plastic panels are repaired and refinished, glare shield is nice, carpet nice.

Old style prop needing Eddie current check but has recent overhaul with less than 100 hrs.

Avionics are king kx155 tso, icom ic-a200. Narco at150 tso, Garmin GPS 155tso, PS engineering PM 1000,king kma 20 tso.  It also has a Britan auto pilot, I think it's a three axis (?) that does not work.

Tanks have slight weeping but not enough to make we want to jump into that just yet.

High torque starter and alternator conversion

several gear ups in its lifetime.

Annualed last month. New tires, brakes, good compressions.

So what is the gut feeling on its value? I don't want to wait for six months or a year to get the last nickel but don't want to give it away either. Just looking for the honest market. I think it's a good plane, I'm just ready to get something a little newer and a J seems to be it.

I've got plenty of photos if anyone is interested.

[carusoam]

Ideas...

1) Post a couple of the photos.

2) The E makes a great retirement plane.  Perfect for somebody looking to update everything one box at a time as dough become available.

3) Do you currently fly this plane IFR?

4) what's on your list...  M20J, Missile, Eagle, or O?  (Look at all at this point)

5) interest rates are just starting to creep.  

I found an O while looking for a J.  Mission creeped through the Missile on the way to the O. It's the engine that I like the most...

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

I think every buyer has an ideal plane in mind.  The price that he / she is willing to pay comes down to how your plane deviates from that ideal.  Having recent work completed by Don is a plus...slight weep in wing is a minus.  Having a nice IFR panel is a plus...the higher time engine is a minus.  etc...

[ArtVandelay]

You're smart to sell first, then buy. I would start with controller and TAP, that will give you at least what people are asking

[Mcoyne34]

Post some pictures.

 

If if you're an AOPA member you can access VRef on their website and get the approximate value of your plane. 

[Mcoyne34]

J-bar or electric gear?h

[nels]

16 minutes ago, Mcoyne34 said:

J-bar or electric gear?h

It has the J bar gear. 

As for posting pictures, I'm not too good at that but might be able to get some guidance from my nephew this weekend. I can email them ok if anyone is interested.

[carusoam]

Two ideas that may be helpful...

1) All American has been known to take trade-ins.  This could be a huge convenience and risk mitigator, If they are selling something that you are interested in...

2) Point your nephew towards the paper clip with the words 'click to choose file' right at the bottom left where you type in the message.  You may not see the clip unless you have the box open for typing...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

Other than the extra 20(?) knots, what has a J got that an E lacks?  Is it worth going from an airplane you know to one you don't to get it?  And is it worth the hassle of selling one airplane and buying another?

[mike_elliott]

If you want to sell your plane, take a real hard look at the question "what would be the maximum I would pay for this plane" You know it better than anyone, don't sell yourself when you make this evaluation, pay particular attention to all of it's weak points, like the TBO. If you answer yourself truthfully to what you would pay for it, it should sell fairly quickly.

[smwash02]

59 minutes ago, steingar said:

Other than the extra 20(?) knots, what has a J got that an E lacks?  Is it worth going from an airplane you know to one you don't to get it?  And is it worth the hassle of selling one airplane and buying another?

 

I struggle with this. With a 200HP upgrade and the new cowl being designed on here, I bet you could get a C/E up to J speeds with some of the other mods...

But you'll always only have the backseat legroom of a short body. As a 6'3 person, I'm comfortable but my occasional backseat passengers are not.

[MB65E]

It's a strange market. What's the reason to a J?  My gut says it sounds like a current airplane that might need some worn in the next 5 years. I would price the work vs price the airplane. The airplane is worth 45 let's say. But to get 50 for it you might need to Reseal the tanks and do a few other things. I don't think you'd find a J for anything close to 70k that didn't need the same amount of work that you need on your E. 

Personally, I'd keep the E, save the time and effort on the J. Put it back into the E with some nice upgrades. 15k would go pretty far on the Old E! (Says a 65E owner)

Or go do what you wanted to do in the first place, spent 100k on a nice J and post pictures of how excited you are!!

Good luck!

-Matt

[mike_elliott]

4 minutes ago, smwash02 said:

 

I struggle with this. With a 200HP upgrade and the new cowl being designed on here, I bet you could get a C/E up to J speeds with some of the other mods...

But you'll always only have the backseat legroom of a short body. As a 6'3 person, I'm comfortable but my occasional backseat passengers are not.

you also wont have the better Useful load, the longer range, better vent system and a number of other minor improvements made, particularly by Roy Lopresti the J offers over an E

[ArtVandelay]

6 minutes ago, smwash02 said:

 

I struggle with this. With a 200HP upgrade and the new cowl being designed on here, I bet you could get a C/E up to J speeds with some of the other mods...

But you'll always only have the backseat legroom of a short body.

Probably true because of the lighter weight of the short bodies, but it's more about the speed and legroom: standard instrument panel and more upside if you choose to upgrade it.

[steingar]

9 minutes ago, smwash02 said:

But you'll always only have the backseat legroom of a short body. As a 6'3 person, I'm comfortable but my occasional backseat passengers are not.

That is the one feature I'd give a J.  But honestly, how often does anyone use their back seat for anything more than their flight bag?  In ten years I could count the number of times I used the back seat on my old airplane on the digits of one hand.  I just can't imagine basing an airplane purchase on it.  That is just me, though.

[rbridges]

I've always thought the J is probably the best all around mooney.  I've thought about "stepping up" to a J several times.  My biggest problem is that I'm happy with my plane.  Squawks are pretty much addressed, and it is more capable as a plane than I am as a pilot.  Keeping me grounded, I realized that a J wouldn't do much more than provide additional leg room for the rear passengers I never have.

As to the OP, I guess you've gone through the same decision process as me.  I would definitely unload my existing plane before buying another.  Lots of good suggestions above.  Jimmy Garrison could be a good person to get a value on your current plane and give you ideas about how to progress. 

[KSMooniac]

IMO, going from an E (or C or F for that matter) to a J won't net you a huge increase in capability...just incrementally better in most measurables such as speed, payload, and range.  It likely would only mean a few minutes on a 200-500 mile trip.  To make a huge difference, you need to think turbo and/or bigger engine models to really save measurable time on a trip.  (I'll leave FIKI out of the discussion since E's and J's can't have it.)

If you have an upcoming need for rear seat pax legroom, then certainly a J or F would be LOTs better.  An E in good repair and with a few modest speed mods should get within spitting distance of a J in cruise, but a J can carry more fuel and possibly skip a fuel stop on a long trip.  A J with the back seats out or folded down can carry more cargo volume than an E, which may or may not be important.

I'm of the strong opinion that airframe time is pretty much irrelevant with Mooneys so long as the maintenance has been good and corrosion is prevented or fixed quickly, so having 6000+ hours isn't necessarily a reason to punt and move on.

A J will of course be newer and probably better equipped, but not necessarily depending on the price range.  

Regarding upgrading a pre-J vs. a J or later model...there has been and likely always will be a value ceiling on each model, no matter how well it has been maintained and upgraded.  This doesn't matter if it is a forever plane of course, but if you anticipate trading up in the future it should be considered.  Jimmy G had a really super E for sale some time ago listed at something north of $100k... and it certainly had a LOT more than that in upgrades beyond the purchased price of a typical E.  Tough sell and requires a very special buyer to see that kind of value.  You can get 100k for a nice J all day long, and frankly a lot more than that.  Avionics, paint, interior, etc. will cost pretty much the same to add to either plane, so you need to be honest with your assessment of ownership horizon vs. upgrade desires.

In your case, you might consider scouring the web for some used/take-out upgrades that might make your plane more marketable...like a generation or two old but still modern audio panel/intercom combo.  Perhaps a 430W since that is nearly a requirement these days.  Used prop to delete the AD, etc.  If you're patient, you might be able to get such upgrades and add equivalent value to the plane vs. the typical 50% of upgrade cost.  Such changes would help the plane sell more quickly IMO.  If you're able to do owner-assist and save some labor costs, then all the better.  

How is that for muddying the waters?  I started out searching for an E or F with some modest upgrades 10 years ago, but ended up lucking into my J locally and spending more than I had planned.  I'm still extremely happy I stretched to get my J, and wonder if I had got an E or F if I would have moved up by now or not.  Hard to say.  

[geoffb]

This is from a guy who owns an ugly but well maintained and good performing '66 E with old radios, so please don't take this as being snobby.

I think the correct answer to your question is $25-30K.  If someone on here has recently sold an E model in similar condition with similar equipment recently for more than that, I'd be very happy to be corrected.  You've got: a high-time engine with some odd sounding maintenance history; multiple damage history events; leaking tanks; relatively high airframe time; old radios; an inop AP; paint that's seen better days.

Selling that plane to get into a 201 will cost a bunch of money and will only get you rear seat leg room.  A 201 just isn't that much faster and most of us don't use them for legs over 600nm that often.  If you want to keep flying and want to stay in a naturally aspirated, 4-cylinder Mooney, I'd stick with the plane I know.

[KSMooniac]

I forgot to mention the Brittain autopilot... it is still very well supported by the good folks in Tulsa and you should be able to get it tip-top for very modest money.  That would make your current trips more enjoyable and of course more marketable if you decide to move up.

I also agree with Geoff...often the devil you know is a wise choice vs. de-squawking a new, unknown plane.

[Andy95W]

How many mods can you buy with just the money you're looking to drop just on sales/use tax for your state?  That's completely wasted money, unfortunately.

[TWinter]

7 hours ago, steingar said:

Other than the extra 20(?) knots, what has a J got that an E lacks?  Is it worth going from an airplane you know to one you don't to get it?  And is it worth the hassle of selling one airplane and buying another?

 A common dilemma. There is a lot to be said for knowing every nut and bolt on your current plane when you are looking at a marginal upgrade. Mine is a 74 with the 200hp and I  shopped the idea of trading up for the extra 6" leg room or keeping my E and making it as nice as your budget allows. I also like the comment regarding the sales tax made by Andy,. with the difference of sales tax alone you can make some nice upgrades. Now if going to a Bravo or O then you are looking at a whole different comparison, you better be shaking cushions for loose change.

 

-Tom  

[larryb]

Do you have a plane available to fly in between selling yours and buying the next one? It's a lot easier to go to look at airplanes if you already have one. It can take months to find a good plane, so if you sell first you may find yourself not flying much or at all for a while.

Honestly speaking I don't think the plane is worth that much. From a buyers point of view it needs everything. It's primary value is to a buyer who is looking for a cheap time builder.

I would take a different approach. I would buy the new plane and then unload the old one at a fire-sale price to move it quickly.

Larry

[kris_adams]

Nels, valuation is a tough question.  I asked a similar question a week or so ago on this board as well as the owner group of one of the planes I'm considering.  In a perfect world I want to sell mine before I purchase another plane.  I basically got three answers to my similar valuation question:

1) hire an appraiser

2) It's worth whatever someone will pay

3) stick online at a high price and start dropping the price a bit every few weeks.

I'm not totally certain what I will do.  Good luck with selling your E.

-Kris

[glafaille]

Larry makes some very good points.  

I just finished a 5 month search for a Mooney and never did find one to my liking.  Most of the likely candidates were based in obscure parts of the country without airline service, making a "look see" visit expensive and time consumming.  You WILL need a plane to find a plane, or lots of spare time and cash for all the travel you will be doing.

As a recent Mooney "hunter" I can tell you that your plane is worth what folks here are telling you.  It's probably worth WAY more to you than anyone else.

Just fly the wheels off it and enjoy.  

[carusoam]

The newer planes got real incremental improvements...

Lopresti did a nice job on the cowl.  What I liked the most was it's ability to handle snow and ice that tends to block the airflow over the older cowl's air filter. Newer cowls have an automatic aux air door.  My old C's idea of aux air was not as nice.

MS member Hyett gave a chilling explanation of ice clogging his intake over the North Sea earlier this year.  Something to check on if you are not familiar...

Overall the newer planes go faster and handle oddities of weather better.  Overall 150kias is pretty good.  175kias in IMC is even better....

The devil you know vs the next devil you don't know yet...  Make sure the next devil has a clean record/bill of health.  Starting over is painful unless doing a full strip and refurb.  One day you will know it too...

Realistically, people are living longer, your airplane is older than you.  There is a possibility that you will be buying another plane in the next decade or two... My favorite example is an MS member in his 80s that flies his Mooney regularly.  My other favorite is Marauder who has been in the same Mooney for 20+ years.

My current plan is to have a retirement plane.  The Stars will have to stay aligned for me to keep the O forever.  Bob's E looks like a great example.

keep an eye on your maintenance as well as your plane's...

Best regards,

-a-