Upgrade 430W to?

[Supercop0184]

Either the GTN650 or Avidyne 440. Wonder how easy it is to switch the 430W to the 650

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[ArtVandelay]

9 hours ago, Supercop0184 said:

Either the GTN650 or Avidyne 440. Wonder how easy it is to switch the 430W to the 650

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I did it but 430 had no WAAS, it required a new antenna and possibly new cabling (I forget), new tray, which means they had to remove the interior, plus new CBs and other misc pieces. So that's ~$400 in parts, interior was a couple of hours to remove and reinstall. I had other work done but I think it was 30+ hours to install.

[M20F]

On 2/22/2016 at 3:08 PM, KSMooniac said:

I currently have a 530W/430W combo and don't feel there is any compelling reason to upgrade the NAV boxes.  

I agree with Scott here there are some nice tweaks on the newer Avidyne or Garmin boxes but nothing that makes me want to sink $6K+ to get one unless you are looking for WAAS.  I would think getting an Aspen to pair to an existing 530W or 430W would be a lot more bang for the buck (especially if you lack an HSI today) in terms of both resale and features.

[PTK]

On February 18, 2016 at 8:26 AM, INA201 said:

Good morning, I've spent quite a few AMUs this morning window shopping and thought I could bring you guys into it.  There have been a few reviews on the IFD440/550 lately and folks seem to like them.  People also like the 650 it seems.  What do you guys think the return on investment would be in upgrading a 430w to 650 or ifd 440 in utility, resale, etc.?  As a wrench in this discussion I have a JPI 700 and it can be upgraded through Spruce for around 1.2AMUs. I'm thinking that bang for the buck might be to do the JPI/650 upgrade if you were going to spend the $ on the IFD.  How much do the Avidyne subscriptions cost in comparison to Garmin too? ...

Personally, if I were to spend money upgrading a 430W I would go with a 750 and get the big screen state of the art workhorse that will drive your panel.

If you're looking for ROI don't compromise your center stack but get the best that you can get. A 750 is a lot more desirable to a potential buyer than an aspen. You're not paying full price anyway due to your 430W trade.

All things being equal a plane with a 750 will sell before one with a 650. Even if the latter has an aspen.

Just my opinion and ymmv.

[ArtVandelay]

49 minutes ago, PTK said:

Personally, if I were to spend money upgrading a 430W I would go with a 750 and get the big screen state of the art workhorse that will drive your panel.

If you're looking for ROI don't compromise your center stack but get the best that you can get. A 750 is a lot more desirable to a potential buyer than an aspen. You're not paying full price anyway due to your 430W trade.

All things being equal a plane with a 750 will sell before one with a 650. Even if the latter has an aspen.

Just my opinion and ymmv.

Not if you have a FS210, then you have a bigger screen for map, navigation and smaller GTN is not a liability.

[Marauder]

On February 18, 2016 at 8:26 AM, INA201 said: Good morning, I've spent quite a few AMUs this morning window shopping and thought I could bring you guys into it.  There have been a few reviews on the IFD440/550 lately and folks seem to like them.  People also like the 650 it seems.  What do you guys think the return on investment would be in upgrading a 430w to 650 or ifd 440 in utility, resale, etc.?  As a wrench in this discussion I have a JPI 700 and it can be upgraded through Spruce for around 1.2AMUs. I'm thinking that bang for the buck might be to do the JPI/650 upgrade if you were going to spend the $ on the IFD.  How much do the Avidyne subscriptions cost in comparison to Garmin too? ...

Personally, if I were to spend money upgrading a 430W I would go with a 750 and get the big screen state of the art workhorse that will drive your panel.

If you're looking for ROI don't compromise your center stack but get the best that you can get. A 750 is a lot more desirable to a potential buyer than an aspen. You're not paying full price anyway due to your 430W trade.

All things being equal a plane with a 750 will sell before one with a 650. Even if the latter has an aspen.

Just my opinion and ymmv.

I guess that is why the Vref charts show an increased value for a glass panel over a mechanical HSI.

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[Bob_Belville]

32 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I guess that is why the Vref charts show an increased value for a glass panel over a mechanical HSI.

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I had not looked at Vref in a couple of years. Disappointed to find they still do not list for vintage Mooneys such popular options as GTNs, Aspen, JPI EDMs, GDL 88, AOA sensors, Powerflow exhausts. Jimmy Garrison's spreadsheet linked on Mooney Flyer has some but not all of these.

[INA201]

I've been reading about the flightstream/iPad430w combination and it sounds pretty cool too.  I use foreflight and stratus 1 now with the 430w to get weather but don't have backup attitude. I don't think the ifd440 or ifd540 communicate with Foreflight like the Garmin's do through Flightstream.  The 650 with Flightstream and the Gdl 88 is pretty enticing also. 

[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I had not looked at Vref in a couple of years. Disappointed to find they still do not list for vintage Mooneys such popular options as GTNs, Aspen, JPI EDMs, GDL 88, AOA sensors, Powerflow exhausts. Jimmy Garrison's spreadsheet linked on Mooney Flyer has some but not all of these.

Are those still available?

 

[aviatoreb]

I would generally think that the cost of getting a gtn650/750 or aspen or g500 is greatly larger than the increase in resale value.  SO not worth it for those reasons.  You get it because you want it, and that is a good reason.

I have a 430w.  Its fine.  I would not buy a 430w though at this stage in history - if I were buying new at this stage I would buy a 650tn for reasons of forward compatibility.  But it is not important enough to me to upgrade at this time.

[Bob_Belville]

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Are those still available?

 

Neither is very current.

http://www.aopa.org/members/vref/

The Garrison link is still included in the latest Mooney Flyer http://www.themooneyflyer.com/FLIP-FEBa/index.html#p=6 but the target site is missing. Maybe it's being updated - it was several years old.

[PTK]

I don't view it this way and I don't take Vref to be the Bible.  IMO Vref is, at best, only slightly relevant here.

The op asked for ROI. Although it will most certainly be negative when purchasing and installing avionics, it seems to me the best we can do is try and keep it the least negative. It will be the least negative when careful spending is put into the the center stack to make it the best it can be.

I feel if he wishes to upgrade his 430W and he gets trade-in value for it, use it to his advantage and go all the way to the top.  Anything less will be a compromise. If not then keep the 430W and go with an FS210. A compromise but an excellent one as it breathes new life into the gns.

My opinion only and ymmv.

[gsxrpilot]

If the IDF540 would talk to my new GTX330ES like my 530W does, I'd have pulled the trigger on this upgrade already.

[M20F]

18 hours ago, PTK said:

Personally, if I were to spend money upgrading a 430W I would go with a 750 and get the big screen state of the art workhorse that will drive your panel.

If you're looking for ROI don't compromise your center stack but get the best that you can get. A 750 is a lot more desirable to a potential buyer than an aspen. You're not paying full price anyway due to your 430W trade.

All things being equal a plane with a 750 will sell before one with a 650. Even if the latter has an aspen.

Just my opinion and ymmv.

A 750 isn't bigger than my iPad, I really don't see what the big fascination is with large screens on a GPS/MFD.  For a PFD a larger screen with synthetic vision is nice but realistically for the GA world a Aspen screen seems plenty suffice to me.  As a buyer I am big on capability and having a PFD like a Garmin 500/Aspen seems to be a lot more useful than a big giant GPS screen that a $500 iPad can beat in a million different ways.  

I completely do not get why people like the FS110/210 (somebody educate me here) versus a Stratus 2.  I can't remember the last time I got an airway as a clearance and when I have gotten fixes you never even make it to the first one before being cleared direct.  I like a keypad versus the twist knob but not enough to spend a lot of AMU's for it.  The weather and other functionality means you need GDL84/88 which is additional cost and at the end of the day gives you nothing more than you can already get out of Stratus 2 (or the $200 build your own version).  

Just my opinion to yours (and probably others!) :-)

[KSMooniac]

The Flightstream 210 doesn't compare to a Stratus or other portable ADS-B receiver at all.  It does offer a lot of convenience for those in the Garmin world in that they can flight plan at home on a tablet, and then simply upload a flight plan into a GNS (or GTN) box and bypass all of the knob-twisting.  True, if you fly direct all the time it isn't as dramatic, but if you ever travel to those places where you'll get a 10-fix clearance then it really shines.  

I'm a dual GNS user, but so far have no PFD, MFD, etc. in my panel.  The GNS screens are lousy for showing weather, so I have no desire to install a GDL 88 or similar for "installed" weather and traffic.  For now, a GDL 39 3D + iPad Mini works very well.  I have a GTX 330ES so I get all of the ADS-B traffic.  I don't have a Flightstream yet, but am tempted.  I have an upcoming trip to CA and if I need to file, my flight plan will be very long to work around restricted airspace, terrain, etc. and I would love to just automagically send the plan from my iPad to the GNS.  Knob-twisting and button pushing 3-5 character fixes x 10 takes a LOT of time.  It really sucks if you get an en-route re-route as well.  It is much easier on a tablet with quick pan/zoom capability to identify the fixes and add them to a flight plan, then upload.  I think the GDL-39 + FS 210 is a powerful and economic combo compared to the full panel-mount options.

The larger screen of a 530 (or 540 or 750) is far more useful compared to the small screen on the 430.  If you haven't flown with one, you probably won't believe me.  Yes, the tablet has a larger and nicer screen, but it cannot provide nav data to fly the flight plan and approach.  I've always advised that if you can only have one, go for the big screen.

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

  

I completely do not get why people like the FS110/210 (somebody educate me here) versus a Stratus 2.  I can't remember the last time I got an airway as a clearance and when I have gotten fixes you never even make it to the first one before being cleared direct.  I like a keypad versus the twist knob but not enough to spend a lot of AMU's for it.  The weather and other functionality means you need GDL84/88 which is additional cost and at the end of the day gives you nothing more than you can already get out of Stratus 2 (or the $200 build your own version).  

Just my opinion to yours (and probably others!) :-)

No ADSB out with the stratus, so unless you have someone else around to ping the traffic in the area, you won't see traffic, makes it unreliable. Anything unreliable in a plane is a toy, not a tool. 

 

[M20F]

54 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

The Flightstream 210 doesn't compare to a Stratus or other portable ADS-B receiver at all.  It does offer a lot of convenience for those in the Garmin world in that they can flight plan at home on a tablet, and then simply upload a flight plan into a GNS (or GTN) box and bypass all of the knob-twisting.  True, if you fly direct all the time it isn't as dramatic, but if you ever travel to those places where you'll get a 10-fix clearance then it really shines.  

I fly in/out of ORD Class B which is usually a multi fix clearance.  I have yet to not have the routing listed on Flightaware match what I get from either C&D or Departure if I pick up in the air, anywhere in the US.  Thus file, look at Flightaware, write down.  My last long routing was RV OREOS OBENE CARET ROEZZ KMKC which is standard for a trip I have been taking lately.  Take off RV 270, 15-20NM's later, cleared direct, I can't remember the last time I have actually even made it to the first fix when given 10+ fixes in a clearance (thus I never bother twisting them all in).  Where is everyone getting consistently 10+ fixes in the US with an enroute GPS filed direct?  We usually get 1-2 gate fixes on the way back depending upon direction of flight which I certainly love putting in using Avidyne keyboard but not enough to spend a lot of AMU's to save a couple twists on the Mooney.

I have a lot of hours behind a 530W and about 200 hours behind an Avidyne 9.  To be honest I really don't use any of the screens that much in comparison to the iPad (we stopped with chart updates on the Avidyne because it got used to little).  Don't get me wrong I have nothing against either and given a choice I would surely take a 530/740 over a 430 if it was free.  In terms of what to do though I fail to see how going from a 430 to a 740 gets a bigger ROI in terms of dollars or functionality over an Aspen.

Are you seriously telling me with your dual 430 set up you would prefer a 740 over a Aspen/Garmin 500/Other PFD install?

19 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

No ADSB out with the stratus, so unless you have someone else around to ping the traffic in the area, you won't see traffic, makes it unreliable. Anything unreliable in a plane is a toy, not a tool. 

 

No ADS-B out with just a FS110/210 either, if you have an out solution than both that solution and the Stratus 2 work.  I really don't get what the FS110/210 gets you.  ADS-B/Mode S/etc. isn't exactly reliable in any flavor yet and there have been a lot of threads to that effect.  I don't discount having it as it has picked up a lot of planes I haven't seen, it has also missed a fair amount of planes I do see and it doesn't it.  I guess there is something to be said for reliably unreliable.

Edited February 29, 2016 by M20F

[Simpson Bennett]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

If the IDF540 would talk to my new GTX330ES like my 530W does, I'd have pulled the trigger on this upgrade already.

The IFD540 will communicate with the GTX330ES in regards to receiving TIS information.

What I think you might be talking about is the ADS-B Out AML STC that is required for a legal installation. We've heard this request before and are investigating what the cost would be to add it to the IFD540 AML STC for ADS-B Out.

[DC_Mooniac]

4 hours ago, M20F said:

Where is everyone getting consistently 10+ fixes in the US with an enroute GPS filed direct?  

When I fly IFR from DC to Boston, I often will receive 10 fixes I need to enter into my 430W, and then will receive at least 3-5 lengthy new routings from ATC as I head north.  That's why I always fly VFR for this route, weather permitting.  The Flightstream 210 will save me a considerable amount of knob-twisting on my 430W -- both for my originally filed route and the enroute changes I inevitably receive from ATC.  For less than one AMU, in my opinion, a Flightstream 210 is not a bad upgrade for those for whom a 430W or 530W is good enough, particularly when using Foreflight on the iPad for traffic and weather (in conjunction with a Stratus 2s and a 330ES).

[M20F]

1 minute ago, DC_Mooniac said:

When I fly IFR from DC to Boston, I often will receive 10 fixes I need to enter into my 430W, and then will receive at least 3-5 lengthy new routings from ATC as I head north.  That's why I always fly VFR for this route, weather permitting.  The Flightstream 210 will save me a considerable amount of knob-twisting on my 430W -- both for my originally filed route and the enroute changes I inevitably receive from ATC.  For less than one AMU, in my opinion, a Flightstream 210 is not a bad upgrade for those for whom a 430W or 530W is good enough, particularly when using Foreflight on the iPad for traffic and weather (in conjunction with a Stratus 2s and a 330ES).

I just looked you up on Flightaware and every single routing you have gotten has fixes in it, are you filing those or filing direct?  I can see DC up to BOS to some extent but the routing out of KSAV and the others seems unusual.  

I fly in/out of KMMU and KHEF albeit East/West and aside from a SID/STAR or a gate fix have never seen anything like what you are seeing. 

[gsengle]

Welcome to the northeast. Same story anytime you file ifr to go anywhere from New England.... Whole lotta knob twisting. You don't get GPS direct going south and going west it's a long way til you do.

Debating between flight stream and 540.

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[DC_Mooniac]

1 minute ago, M20F said:

every single routing you have gotten has fixes in it, are you filing those or filing direct

I generally try to anticipate the route I will be given when I fly up to Boston, based to some degree on prior experience (the few times I have filed IFR) or previously approved routings on fltplan or Foreflight.  My goal is to try to minimize the amount of knob-twisting I need to do while flying single-pilot IFR in IMC.  The chances of ATC approving W00 direct KOWD in my experience is non-existent.  I have to receive the clearance before departing W00 because it is in the SFRA, though often the very next controller (after departing) tells me he or she has a new (complex) route for me and to advise when ready to copy (it is never direct KOWD), and so begins the numerous routes changes from ATC.  I forget if flightaware reflects what I file or if it is the amended route I receive from ATC before departing in the SFRA.

I agree that not filing direct for other routes might not be necessary, but on my recent KSAV - KFMY flight, I had read about which routes to expect for the flight (it was my first trip to FL) and decided to file something that had been approved recently. 

My only point is that adding a Flightstream 210 is a decent improvement over just the 430W because for my flights that often take me over or around busy NYC airspace I can enter changes in my iPad and then press a button to transfer to the 430W instead of having to enter the route into both the 430W and iPad every time I receive a new route from ATC.

[Godfather]

Just wanted to mention one of my pet peeves on the garmin 750/650 units...no twas warnings.  Total BS in this day and age that a $25k stack does not give you any type of warning that can be used to avoid a tower etc..  I'm not talking about a certified unit that tells you what to do just a warning pop up...I'm pretty sure the IFD models have twas.

[Marauder]

Just wanted to mention one of my pet peeves on the garmin 750/650 units...no twas warnings.  Total BS in this day and age that a $25k stack does not give you any type of warning that can be used to avoid a tower etc..  I'm not talking about a certified unit that tells you what to do just a warning pop up...I'm pretty sure the IFD models have twas.

Oh, you can get it. Just another $6,000 to your number.

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[bradp]

Wait my non-WAAS 430 has terrain and obstacle advisory information (it's sometimes useful but mostly annoying when I'm on an approach in a protected area) and an GTN doesn't???

 

Also has the Bluetooth / wifi been activated in the IFD units and does this allow interface with a table device to alter flight plans in the same way as the Flightstream?  

 

With the ease of installation for existing 430/530 users, TAWS, and wireless connectivity...that's a lot of functionality in one box.  The AML STC that AviSimpson references may lure additional converts....