AmSafe Airbag System

[Mooney_Allegro]

Airbags have been part of the automotive industry for years and you wouldn't think about purchasing a car without them. Well, this life-saving technology is now available for your aircraft. In service since 2001, 80% of new general aviation aircraft have the AmSafe Airbag System. Now the airbag is available for retrofit on older aircraft. 

I just copied the above quote from the AmSafe Airbag website.  I have a J-Model Mooney, and I'm interested in having the Amsafe Seat Belt System installed in my aircraft, unfortunately AmSafe doesn't have an STC approval for the "J" model, which is surprising since there are a lot of J models in the service. 

There was a recent fatal crash of a single-engine Ercoupe at my hometown airport on Saturday, and from what I saw of the plane, it looked survivable.  There was also another crash of a twin-engine aircraft about 6 months ago, at the same airport, the pilot was killed due to head trauma I believe, others in the plane survived.  From what I can tell, these pilots may be alive today if they had the AmSafe system installed. 

If you are unfamiliar how they work, their website is www.gaairbags.com.  I have no affiliation with the company, but if the J-model owners put enough pressure on both AmSafe & Mooney to provide the documention, perhaps AmSafe will offer these life saving devices for our aircraft.  The systems are not cheap, and certain parts have to be refurbished/replaced after certain time intervals, but my life is worth more than what they are offering them for sure. 

Are there any other J model pilots that may be interested in the airbag system?

[HopePilot]

How many pounds of useful load do you lose?

[richardheitzman]

Pressure noted

I just came back from the MAPA convention in Colorado Springs and the majority of the owners who approached me had the M20J aircraft. I have already started the process for working with Mooney (Stacey Ellis sellis@mooney.com) to have Mooney give AmSafe a letter of Conformity that will assist us in adding the M20J and the rest of the M20K to the STC. Once that is done I will contact those owners who have filled out a contact sheet with me and I will let them know the STC is ready. (send Stacey an email telling him to hurry up LOL).

You are more then welcome to contact me via emil at rheitzman@amsafe.com and tell me you're interested.

The system adds about 1.5lbs per seat and right now we plan only to offer the kit for the front two seats. If you want to know the anticipated price send me an email as well.

I don't think the M20 C,E,F,G will be as easy but that will be a follow on program. Fred Nichols is already banging on me to get it done. SORRY FRED!

 

[LuvFlying]

No STC? That's weird. About 6 months ago I got this quote from www.airmodsflightcenter.com

"I'm interested in a price for front and rear AmSafe airbag seat belts. I have a 1988 Mooney M20J / 205 SE.  Thank you."

"The 4 place Amsafe kit is $ 6,800.00 and in stock at mooney, your choices of color is gray or tan, Installation time is approx 8 hrs per seat for a total of 32 hrs at $ 80.00 per hour, add 2 hrs for weight and balance, equip list revisions and 337 forms. The electronics get mounted under the rear seat compartment."

 

I asked (3 times) for what it would cost (exact price) for two seats. Never got a response.

 

With the closeness of the panel in my/our Mooney, airbags in the front are a fairly high priority.

[HopePilot]

So...$8280 for two seats.  That's pretty steep.  I'd like to see some competition at those prices.

[richardheitzman]

OK you guys want to talk price.

The current MSRP for the Mooney STC kit is $3,780 (front seats). That does not include labor to install. This kit is applicable to the 2000 series serial number M20K and above, M20R, M20S, M20TN, M20M.

Right now we are working on the STC development for the M20J and the rest of M20K. If anyone quotes you a price for a M20J send them to me so I can correct them.

Labor times are high for the Mooney aircraft as the side panels need to be removed to gain access to the inertial reels for the swap, that adds at least 8 hours total, then the EMA bracket installation is another 6-8 hours, then the inflators and seatbelt installation adds another 4-6 hours. You can expect at least 20 hours and more then likely 24 hours of labor to install.

The early model Mooney aircraft should not be so labor intensive, but we shall see.

For you guys it's a bit pricey but I don't sell the price, I sell the added safety of the system. You would pay any price in the seconds before a crash, and so forget about the 696 for now and put some real safety into the aircraft. Al Mooney made that tubular structure strong enough to withstand some serious G-forces, and with the airbags you can add some serious protection.

 

 

[Hank]

Good points, Richard. And kudos for making a good, useful product!

Us Vintage folks will just wait and see how it goes. Since I have no shoulder belts at all yet, installation should be much simpler, rather like putting in "normal" front shoulder belts, right? And good old owner assistance can go a long way towards reducing the installation costs.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Hank

Us Vintage folks will just wait and see how it goes. Since I have no shoulder belts at all yet, installation should be much simpler, rather like putting in "normal" front shoulder belts, right? And good old owner assistance can go a long way towards reducing the installation costs.

[LuvFlying]

$5700. Gulp.

But I'd probably do it.  It's adding real saftey to the plane.  Please let us J owners know when we have the option!

[M016576]

Can't wait for this STC... I'm already saving for this mod.  You never know when something bad will happen... best be prepared!

[HopePilot]

I think he means $3750 each front seat.  Am I wrong?

[HopePilot]

Duplicate post.

[Piloto]

Not to undermind the potential safety advantage of these air bags I don't think they would provide the same degree of protection as in a car. Aircraft impacts velocities are much higher (over 70mph) than on the average car accident speed (40mph). That is three times the energy on a plane impact. Furthermore some of these impacts have high vertical components that causes injuries to the spinal cord were the airbag offers no protection like a good seat cushion. Not to mention the fire potential that occurs in many of these crashes. I think $3500/seat is ridiculuosly expensive for a safety device that offers no protection in most cases. I would rather invest my money on an engine analyzer or a collision avoidance device before on an airbag.

José

[Jeff_S]

I have to admit I'm on the fence on this one. There is not only the initial price to pay, but periodic maintenance and upkeep of the system which is significant dollars as well. At some point you have to decide the trade-off between economics and utility. I know David (the OP) flies a lot at night and in that situation, where you can't easily find a good landing spot, the airbags would provide some additional peace of mind. But for mostly day flying, I believe the old adage of "fly it all the way to the crash site" is still pretty good advice.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Jeff_S

I have to admit I'm on the fence on this one. There is not only the initial price to pay, but periodic maintenance and upkeep of the system which is significant dollars as well. At some point you have to decide the trade-off between economics and utility. I know David (the OP) flies a lot at night and in that situation, where you can't easily find a good landing spot, the airbags would provide some additional peace of mind. But for mostly day flying, I believe the old adage of "fly it all the way to the crash site" is still pretty good advice.

[richardheitzman]

Quote: HopePilot

I think he means $3750 each front seat.  Am I wrong?

[richardheitzman]

Quote: Piloto

Not to undermind the potential safety advantage of these air bags I don't think they would provide the same degree of protection as in a car. Aircraft impacts velocities are much higher (over 70mph) than on the average car accident speed (40mph). That is three times the energy on a plane impact. Furthermore some of these impacts have high vertical components that causes injuries to the spinal cord were the airbag offers no protection like a good seat cushion. Not to mention the fire potential that occurs in many of these crashes. I think $3500/seat is ridiculuosly expensive for a safety device that offers no protection in most cases. I would rather invest my money on an engine analyzer or a collision avoidance device before on an airbag.

José

[M016576]

Quote: Jeff_S

I have to admit I'm on the fence on this one. There is not only the initial price to pay, but periodic maintenance and upkeep of the system which is significant dollars as well. At some point you have to decide the trade-off between economics and utility. I know David (the OP) flies a lot at night and in that situation, where you can't easily find a good landing spot, the airbags would provide some additional peace of mind. But for mostly day flying, I believe the old adage of "fly it all the way to the crash site" is still pretty good advice.

[Piloto]

Quote: richardheitzman

 

[richardheitzman]

Hi Jose,

I am a glass half full type guy. What the FAA was trying to say in thier report was Airbags could have saved those lives. They did not talk about what caused the crash (VMC flight into IMC, engine failure, aborted takeoff, stalls, etc). Even if one life was saved, That would have been better then no lives. Right?

We perform sled test experiments to the tune of over 700 per year in our Phoenix facility which you are more than welcome to visit at any time. We utilize aircraft structures, seat structures, real airframes, mock ups, etc to simulate the crash environment. We take the tests up to 26 g's and sometimes even up to 30 g's of force to insure that the airbags provide the protection we are looking for. We have crash test dummies (not me) and collect data using high speed cameras and telemetry

Jose I have presented the information the best I can in this informal forum. Please feel free to visit our website at www.gaairbags.com and take a look at the information presented there.

If you have any more questions or comments please feel free to contact me at my email address rheitzman@amsafe.com

Thanks for the great conversation. I enjoy explaining the system and you really have made me dig into my information to try and explain all aspects.

Take care and have a great week.

Quote: Piloto

 

[HopePilot]

$3780 seems fair for two seats.  With only 3 pounds total loss of useful load (for two seats), I'd be interested if I had the money.  Installation drives the price up quite a bit, but a special offer could tempt me...someday.

 

[Piloto]

Richard  I look at your video and noticed that the back structure holding the shoulder belt was allowed to move forward thus allowing no torso restrain by the shoulder belt. In reality like in a Mooney steel frame that back structure would not have deflected that much. On the video there is no indication of the impact effect on the lower body (legs). On many of these crashes your legs get crushed by the nose wheel. I think I would rather have a 4 point seat belt ($200) anchored to the structure like those found in racing cars and aerobatic planes. The 4 point seat belt besides adding protection during crash it significantly helps you cope with severe turbulence. Also keep in mind that airbags offers added protection in cars even if the seat belt is not worn (the original purpose) which is not the case here. I still think the AmSafe Airbag offers some degree of added protection but in no way to that found in cars.

José       

[HopePilot]

Has anyone put a 4 point seat belt into a Mooney?  

[Jeff_S]

Quote: M016576

 It's not getting to the crash site that the airbags are designed to help you with (that's pretty inevitable if you're airborne w/ and emergency)... it's what could happen when your wheels hit the deck.  And I understand: you're saying that if you lose your motor, just fly (glide) to a prepared surface and land, then you don't need the airbags... but what if you can't make it to a prepared surface (and the right answer isn't: "well, I'll just never let myself get to that position" because, if you're like me, sometimes you make mistakes)?

-Job

[mjc]

I felt the need to chime in after reading a post stating that airbags were originally intended for situations in which an occupant was not wearing a seatbelt. From the outset, airbags were called SRS, or Supplemental Restraint System. They were always intended to supplement the existing safety features of the car (read: the seatbelts), not to replace them. It doesn't take much searching to find numerous references to this, notably on wikipedia's page on airbags:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbag

Interestingly, the seatbelt-airbag concept appears to be going mainstream. Ford intends to install seatbelt airbags in some of their 2011-year SUVs:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/05/business/main5536354.shtml

As far as maintenance of the system goes, I can't imagine that it needs continuous maintenance. Cars that have been on the road for 10 or 15 years are routinely involved in accidents that result in airbag deployments. That is not, to my mind, a reasonable argument against airbags.

The reasonable argument to me is this. Cars don't have airbags to protect people who don't wear seatbelts. Cars have airbags because half or more of the people involved in car accidents were not responsible for the outcome; they were in the not-at-fault-car. This is rarely the case in an aircraft accident. So if you're pretty sure you'll never lose control on landing or try to take off when the density altitude to just too high, maybe there are better things to do with your $4000 and three pounds.

Then again, there is no link to the FAA study mentioned above, but if it is indeed the case that 50 people out of 115 would have survived an airplane accident had they invested $4000 and three pounds of useful load, I'm pretty sure that every one of those 50 people would happily write a check ten times as large at the moment of impact.

I would love to see an STC to install this system on ALL FOUR SEATS of my M20C. I would further like to have a means of disabling the system for individual seats (for situations in which a carseat or a young child occupies a seat).