Engine failure @ FL190 yesterday

[carl]

Tom,

sorry to hear this. 

I think everyone here is here for you.

carl

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, Bennett said:

 

I hope you were able to reach your dad in time. Congratulations on a successful landing. Getting the airplane back should be of secondary importance. Good to live to fly another day

A suggestion about the problem. I once had a failure of my engine driven fuel pump at FL 230 in winter in IMC over Big Bear in California. I lost virtually all power, and mistakingly assumed it was a turbocharger failure. I was concerned that hot gases might be hitting the firewall. In retrospect that would not have been consistent with the loss of power. In trying to regain some power I tried the high position of the auxiliary fuel pump, but that just caused the engine to burble worse. I called LA Center and declared an emergency as I could not maintain altitude. They gave me vectors to Palm Springs, which from FL230 was no problem, and I had already set up my avionics to go there. I was still concerned about flames from a supposed turbocharger failure, and so I used the Commercial Spiral (gear and flaps down, speed brakes out, 50 degrees of bank, and an indicated airspeed of 110 knots) and the ASI hit its max reading of -2,000'/minute. I later calculated the real rate of decent was closer to 3,000'/minute. I broke out at about 3,500 AGL, and seeing that I was right over the field, and having experience dead sticking aircraft from that altitude, I made no attempt to increase what little power I had, if any. I did try the low boost position of the auxiliary fuel pump, but it didn't help. Tower wanted to know what runway I wanted, and that "the field was mine", and did I want the equipment rolled. I said that I would let them know the runway after my last turn. Just rolled level, and made an uneventful landing. I was totally calm during the whole ordeal - remembering my old flight instructor's admonition to just fly the airplane. As luck would have it, as I rolled off the runway, I saw a gentleman rushing out of a hangar to guide me in. Turned out he was the designer of the Continental engine driven fuel pump (this was my old 261 conversion) and in listening to my transmissions to ATC, knew exactly what the problem was. He repaired the pump, and I was back in the air two days later. While I was clearly mistaken in the cause of the engine problem, had I understood that the symptoms I was seeing was most likely an engine driven fuel pump failure, I doubt if I would have done much differently. I tried all the usual things: switch gas tanks, check throttle, mixture, prop positions and check to see if any circuit breakers had popped, but after that it was pretty much where to go, and to talk to LA Center to avoid other aircraft.

Bennet, since it was your engine driven fuel pump working poorly, why is it that when you tried the electric fuel pump on high it didn't help?

[Yooper Rocketman]

Just s quick note. I made it in time and his eyes lit pretty good when he saw me. Not sure if this will end in a good way but the reception was well worth the work to get here.

Thanks for all the kind comments and support!

Tom

[Houman]

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Just s quick note. I made it in time and his eyes lit pretty good when he saw me. Not sure if this will end in a good way but the reception was well worth the work to get here.

Thanks for all the kind comments and support!

Tom

Glad that you made it in time, family is so more important than piece of metal that can be fixed.

When possible, please let us know what it ends up to be, as a Rocket owner, I would be really interested.

Thanks

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Just s quick note. I made it in time and his eyes lit pretty good when he saw me. Not sure if this will end in a good way but the reception was well worth the work to get here.

Thanks for all the kind comments and support!

Tom

Tom, I went through something similar with my father a year ago, which turned out well, so am praying for same for your Dad.  Great job getting your ship down safely.  If I can do anything at all from here on Long Island, NY, please advise.

[Bennett]

3 hours ago, Bennett said:  

I hope you were able to reach your dad in time. Congratulations on a successful landing. Getting the airplane back should be of secondary importance. Good to live to fly another day

A suggestion about the problem. I once had a failure of my engine driven fuel pump at FL 230 in winter in IMC over Big Bear in California. I lost virtually all power, and mistakingly assumed it was a turbocharger failure. I was concerned that hot gases might be hitting the firewall. In retrospect that would not have been consistent with the loss of power. In trying to regain some power I tried the high position of the auxiliary fuel pump, but that just caused the engine to burble worse. I called LA Center and declared an emergency as I could not maintain altitude. They gave me vectors to Palm Springs, which from FL230 was no problem, and I had already set up my avionics to go there. I was still concerned about flames from a supposed turbocharger failure, and so I used the Commercial Spiral (gear and flaps down, speed brakes out, 50 degrees of bank, and an indicated airspeed of 110 knots) and the ASI hit its max reading of -2,000'/minute. I later calculated the real rate of decent was closer to 3,000'/minute. I broke out at about 3,500 AGL, and seeing that I was right over the field, and having experience dead sticking aircraft from that altitude, I made no attempt to increase what little power I had, if any. I did try the low boost position of the auxiliary fuel pump, but it didn't help. Tower wanted to know what runway I wanted, and that "the field was mine", and did I want the equipment rolled. I said that I would let them know the runway after my last turn. Just rolled level, and made an uneventful landing. I was totally calm during the whole ordeal - remembering my old flight instructor's admonition to just fly the airplane. As luck would have it, as I rolled off the runway, I saw a gentleman rushing out of a hangar to guide me in. Turned out he was the designer of the Continental engine driven fuel pump (this was my old 261 conversion) and in listening to my transmissions to ATC, knew exactly what the problem was. He repaired the pump, and I was back in the air two days later. While I was clearly mistaken in the cause of the engine problem, had I understood that the symptoms I was seeing was most likely an engine driven fuel pump failure, I doubt if I would have done much differently. I tried all the usual things: switch gas tanks, check throttle, mixture, prop positions and check to see if any circuit breakers had popped, but after that it was pretty much where to go, and to talk to LA Center to avoid other aircraft.

Bennet, since it was your engine driven fuel pump working poorly, why is it that when you tried the electric fuel pump on high it didn't help?

II did try the two position boost pump. On the high position all it did was to make the engine burble worse, the low position did nothing. When I had the engine driven fuel pump repaired in Palm Springs I had the boost pump replaced as well. I recall a conversation with Coy Jacobs (I know some members of this forum do not like him) who had a similar problem with the two position boost pump in which he had to fly in "ground" effect over the Gulf after his engine driven failed and he tried using the boost pump to provide the fuel. It was not strong enough to develop much power, hence the ground effect flight. It was my understanding that this was a boost pump to augment the engine driven pump, not to replace it.

[Jim Peace]

Nice job.....makes me think....with fuel prices so low maybe it is time for a twin...........

[Houman]

13 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Nice job.....makes me think....with fuel prices so low maybe it is time for a twin...........

Yeah fuel prices are low, but engine overhaul is still pretty expensive and you will have 2 of them to take care off...

[Wakeup]

I love a good ending to a story.  Strong work on getting down safely and happy to hear you got to see your father.  I only pray if that ever happens to me, I will perform the way you did.  Hoping for a good outcome all the way around.  Troy 

[C-GHIJ]

Glad you made it to see your father.  May God give him (and you) peace.  Thoughts and Prayers

[Yooper Rocketman]

Dad went from about as close as you can to leaving this world to the doctors now talking about transferring him to the Asheville VA by last night. I have to believe all the prayers helped. His long term will likely be a nursing home or assisted living, but he refused to give up. Not sure I would have been as tough. 

Sitting in ATLANTA waiting my flight back home. Steve, my best friend, agreed to accompany me on the original flight down. He refused to fly back that day, taking a rental car back to the U.P. Thursday. He's been in conversation with Chad from Kubick Aviation about the likely failure mode and Chad is going to demand ramp access to my plane for diagnosis and repair. A crew of us will be going down on Tuesday to see if I had a turbo failure and verify how much oil was left in the sump.

I will keep everyone up to speed on both situations.  I have to say the support I've received from my Mooney friends was beyond anything I ever imagined.  You guys ROCK!!!

Tom

 

 

[FlyWalt]

Tom,

Good Morning. Here is a belated congrats on handling a negative situation and doing it very well. Also a belated prayer for you and your Dad.

As to this matter with the FBO and getting service to your aircraft; The way I read this,  your aircraft is stuck in Kalamazoo, MI. Correct? If that is the case then it AMAZES me that a company the size of that FBO can not scare up an extra A&P somewhere to help you out in a tight situation. That just baffles me.

Another angle I would consider is this; Foreflight shows the "Kalamazoo Pilots Association" with a phone number. There is bound to be someone in that pilot group that can help you out without having to take your valuable time. You have enough on your shoulders right now.

Also, Foreflight shows three companies under their Aircraft Maintenance/Services listings. They are:

    Fly Kalamazoo

    Kalamazoo AIrcraft

    Under His Wings

There is evidently enough of a community there to support these businesses.

Cheers,
W

[Yooper Rocketman]

Walt,

To be clear, Kalamazoo Aircraft is where I taxied up with the plane upon landing.  They went out of their way, dropping what they were doing, to look at the plane.  They pulled cowls, removed and cut open the oil filter, checked engine compression, and head crunched between three of them what the likely mode of failure was.  I asked for a bill and they would not charge me.  My mercy flight organization had them inspect the first Bonanza we purchased and had a very good experience with them.  I believe they are a Bonanza Service Center.  They even ran Steve over to a hotel when it was all said and done.

The owner was frank with me about getting the plane in for more serious work.  He is extremely busy, and has customers expecting work done beyond what he can do now, so adding work is simply not an option.  He was pretty apologetic about it, but as a business owner, I understand his customer expectations and what it will look like for a long standing customer to walk in and his plane has taken a back seat to a transient that hasn't waited in line to get their repairs completed.

I inquired about Duncan, the large FBO on the field, and he had nothing bad to say about them, but simply stated they did not do engine work, at least not at the level I may require.  My local FBO, with whom I have the utmost trust and respect for, will be arranging access to my plane for next week and feels there is no way they can deny him access when no one ON FIELD can get me going.  I will be checking in with him on Monday, as I just got back home this afternoon.  I suspect we will be going down on Tuesday to determine what I am dealing with.

The local pilot association will be an option if I hit any brick walls, so thanks for the tip.

Tom

 

[cliffy]

There has got to be other airplanes on the field that get work done when the big shops are full. No airport could function if that was the situation. Your annual is due and all the shops say is wait 3 months? 

Maybe another private hangar could be rented so your mechanic could get it going? 

Some municipal airports do have restrictions on who can come on the airport and do work BUT most have a permit program where the outside operation can pay a fee to the airport and gain temporary access for a specific project. Get to the airport manager and find out the rules. This happens all the time at our airport. 

[bonal]

Again well done on your safe outcome and my prayers to the both of you for your dads. Life is both wonderful and brutal I wish mine could have been around longer but I have been blessed that mom is still strong at 94

[DXB]

Glad to hear of your safe outcome, particularly under such difficult personal circumstances.  The whole community stands behind you.   Also thank you for sharing how the repair turns out so others may learn.  

[Yooper Rocketman]

My local airport manager went to bat for me and after a written request by me to the KAZO airport Manager, explaining the problem of no service available for at least two months, he authorized me and my A&P to proceed with troubleshooting and repair.  Chad Kubick, the owner of Kubick Aviation (my maintenance facility) called Duncan Aviation, the large FBO on the field that doesn't conduct engine repairs, and requested a hangar.  When we produced the letter authorizing us to work on the field, they provided us with a heated hangar.  Truly a TOP NOTCH FBO.

So we flew out today around noon and ultimately found the turbo had failed.  The bearings are shot and the shaft is really sloppy in the housing.  We drained the oil, having a holly crap moment at first, forgetting they had just brought it in from outside.  After about 20 seconds oil started dripping out the drain extension tube and we ended up with 4-5 quarts coming out.  Adding the quart that was in the filter, we should be OK on the engine.  I checked new turbo pricing last night and Cessna (the Rocket engine is from the 340/414 Cessna's) shows $3600.  I will be looking at overhaul and rebuilt exchange options tomorrow.

On another note, Dad was doing good when I left on Saturday, but after 3 days of decline has opted for hospice.  They pull all the tubes out tomorrow and work purely with "comfort measures".  I sincerely appreciate all the support and interest from my Mooney friends, just wanted to pass the latest news on.

Thanks everyone!

Tom

[Andy95W]

Glad you figured out your engine trouble. 

Hope your Dad is comfortable.

Good luck and God bless.

[cliffy]

Been there done that with my Dad, You have my support

Anything you need just ask

Prayers.

[Steve Dawson]

Glad to hear that your plane will be OK after just having only to replace or rebuild your turbo but very sorry to hear about your father. You're a good son.

[jlunseth]

We ran into an issue on mine that you might want to be aware of.  When the mechanic checked the engine out on the ground we had about 2 1/2 - 3 qts. left, which is minimal but the engine checked out ok.  However, to get down from FL190 in a short period of time and get out of the big tailwind we had that was blowing us over Lake Huron, I dove pretty hard with the engine throttled back.  We got some ring chatter, meaning the rings are not compressed by the combustion process, so they ride loose in the grooves and will move around.  We had to replace a couple of cylinders maybe 100-200 hours later because of low compression.

[steingar]

What a dramatic story!  Glad the OP made it down in one unadulterated piece.  Loosing one member of the family to infinity and disease is awful, but loosing another who was on the way to see him would be a horrible blow to those who remain.

Sucks that an expensive part has to be replaced, but its only money.  Airplanes and their paraphernalia are easily replaced, their pilots not so much.  Good luck with the repairs.

[Yooper Rocketman]

Semper Fi pops.

11/27/31 to 12/16/15

[Brandontwalker]

The greatest generation. May God be with you and your family.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yooper Rocketman]

We flew down and installed the new turbo today. Found some debris in return fitting and the first hose off the turbo going to the one way check valve was almost completely plugged. We removed the check valve and blew some carbon out of the hose. The check valve was clean and the 2' hose from there to the scavenge pump was clean so looks like we got lucky.

If you have never pulled a turbo on a Rocket it's a real treat. The intake housing has to be separated from the turbo to get it dropped through the engine mount tubes. Reinstallation requires the same reverse process. Some of the bolts and nuts are nearly impossible to access. In addition we pulled both inter coolers to check for aluminum debris and blow them out. 

We ran the engine just before dark and had very good oil pressure, all engine parameters looked good, and it sounded great. We decided to do the hotel overnight and conduct the first test flight in daylight. If all goes well tomorrow I will fly it over the pond to the U.P.