G-1000 Update

[Danb]

I did my quarterly task of contacting Paul at Mooney in regard to acquiring information where the company is in there quest at solving our lack of WAAS and Adsb. The program has been quite slow and it seems like Mooney is in quick sand in finding the solution to our dilemma. I queried Paul and what I found out is  they aren't moving very fast and I'll be checking back every couple months. He said that the WAAS solution may be around $25k to $27k the Adsb out via swapping our 330 for an extended squatter box say about $5,000. I pressed him on the  assumed cost and these were his guestimates at this time. They don't want to just rush into a fix and have it wrong therefore that's what seems to be taking so long. Basically it should be able to be done in the field at a MSC or maybe a certified Garmin dealer for $30,000 to $35,000. I mentioned at that price point I'd consider changing to the Garmin autopilot and waas as offered  a few years ago, that deal is off the table and not offered since 2010 so that's out. For what our planes have been discounted already due to  absence of the waas and Adsb I'd do the deal now if they were ready but there not.

[Jerry 5TJ]

How many non-WAAS G1000 Mooney airplanes are out there?  

[Danb]

Quite a few, I really don't know how many, you figure 2005-6-7 and many 2008 Bravos, Ovations And Acclaims were made without waas and Adsb . 

[Danb]

Tha way I'm looking at now since I have minimal choice, is that to make my plane up to standard it will cost say $30,000+... Many planes prior to the new long bodies have invested $25-$50,000 in there glass panels , I'd be doing the same I just would like Mooney to get it done before I'm to old to keep flying.

[OR75]

What is wrong with a standalone cheaper solution like the Free-flight boxes that go in the tail cone ? 

If you want weather and traffic you can get it on a tablet ( that you probably a,ready have) 

the whole thing won't look very sexy but it won't be north of $25,000 either . A fifth of that all in at the most .

[KSMooniac]

The ability to fly a WAAS approach in a world with fewer and fewer land-based approaches has some value as well.

[OR75]

ADF are going (if not mostly gone). I got rid of the ADF

VOR are going (although many will stay) and are being replaced by

RNAV / GPS

ILS approaches are here to stay

Only ones you miss without WAAS are GPS LPV.  But at $20,000 / install cost, that would make the cost per approach down to say a 450-250ft minimum high. At least, it does in my book. But I understand it is all relative.      

[Danb]

I agree with your cost breakdown 'OR75'  but the main reason I want to be one of the first to get the update done is our planes have already been deeply discounted for the lack of waas and no solution to Adsb so I'm willing to take a chance that if the plane is brought of to today's standard that the fair market value of the plane would increase, now that's quite a risk I'd be taking possibly foolish? I don't see a cost benefit for me doing it just for my flight purpose therefore the risk tolerance is there. I've considered selling mine and getting an "O' or older Bravo with either  panel like Don Kayes

 or like the marauder, problem is the  price decrease in the non waas G-1000 planes. Tough choice, any good advice from our forum would be appreciated.

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, Danb said:

Quite a few, I really don't know how many, you figure 2005-6-7 and many 2008 Bravos, Ovations And Acclaims were made without waas and Adsb . 

Last year for the Bravo was 2006 I believe. It was replaced by the Acclaim.

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Danb said:

I've considered selling mine and getting an "O' or older Bravo with either  panel like Don Kaye's or like the marauder, problem is the  price decrease in the non waas G-1000 planes. Tough choice, any good advice from our forum would be appreciated.

It's such a frustrating problem in that there is just nothing you can do without Mooney.  I'd be inclined to sell the plane at a discount and be done with it.  I really like the WAAS LPV approaches.  They are worth having if you are doing serious IFR.

On a smaller scale I'm biting the bullet on my Plessey Landing Gear actuator.  There are no more back springs being made at any price.  I spoke to Tom Bowen at the Mooney Summit in Paso Robles last June and he said he would look into the matter.  As much as I like Tom, I think there's as much chance of Mooney doing something about this as there is of hell freezing over.  If I ever wanted to sell my plane (I don't) I would feel obligated to tell the buyer of the issue and the plane would probably be discounted about $10,000.

Tom Rouch at Top Gun offered to make up a standard actuator with new motor and spring for less than half the discount.  I took him up on the offer and expect to have it installed shortly.  Laser wanted twice as much.  Anyone want an actuator and a second used backup spring...?

[Piloto]

The update to WAAS of the G1000 is a Garmin matter. Mooney can't do anything except wait for a Garmin solution. The fastest solution would be to upgrade the G1000 to the same level as on the Acclaim. Check with Garmin for a possible upgrade.

José

[donkaye]

23 minutes ago, Piloto said:

The update to WAAS of the G1000 is a Garmin matter. Mooney can't do anything except wait for a Garmin solution. The fastest solution would be to upgrade the G1000 to the same level as on the Acclaim. Check with Garmin for a possible upgrade.

José

I believe you're wrong on that.  Garmin has is all on the Cirrus.  Mooney certified their airplane in a certain way and they have to work with Garmin and the FAA to change it.   It is Mooney's problem.  Additionally, Mooney doesn't have ADS-B In on any of the Acclaims.

[Piloto]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I believe you're wrong on that.  Garmin has is all on the Cirrus.  Mooney certified their airplane in a certain way and they have to work with Garmin and the FAA to change it.   It is Mooney's problem.

When the first Bravos and Ovations came out with the G530 these were upgraded to WAAS without Mooney involvement. Mooney can't come up with a solution for the G1000 because it is not their product. The software and hardware design on the G1000 is solely from Garmin not from Mooney or the FAA. Garmin would be the one defining and certifying the changes. After all they already have WAAS G1000 on the new Acclaim.

José  

[ArtVandelay]

On a smaller scale I'm biting the bullet on my Plessey Landing Gear actuator.  There are no more back springs being made at any price.  I spoke to Tom Bowen at the Mooney Summit in Paso Robles last June and he said he would look into the matter.  As much as I like Tom, I think there's as much chance of Mooney doing something about this as there is of hell freezing over.  If I ever wanted to sell my plane (I don't) I would feel obligated to tell the buyer of the issue and the plane would probably be discounted about $10,000.

Is the actuator,back spring in the current acclaim that much different, wouldn't it be easier,cheaper just to retrofit the newer part number?

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

 

Is the actuator,back spring in the current acclaim that much different, wouldn't it be easier,cheaper just to retrofit the newer part number?

The spring IS that much different.  The Plessey spring and the others are not interchangeable, and the maker of the Plessey spring is not making them anymore.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Piloto said:

When the first Bravos and Ovations came out with the G530 these were upgraded to WAAS without Mooney involvement. Mooney can't come up with a solution for the G1000 because it is not their product. The software and hardware design on the G1000 is solely from Garmin not from Mooney or the FAA. Garmin would be the one defining and certifying the changes. After all they already have WAAS G1000 on the new Acclaim.

José  

Jose, I'm not going to try and convince you, but the G1000 in the older planes were certified for the airplane with that specific configuration.  It's Mooney's problem.

[Danb]

Don, your correct in that Mooney has to do the project it's Mooneys problem to fix, I've been in continuous contact with them for a few yrs. They have an ovation there supposed to be doing the alterations and subsequent certification with. Since our ships are certified with the setup we have it can't be changed, believe me I've been trying to find a way,  I have a manager of an aviation company that can change the boxes to waas , get new antennas etc, can't do the big screen though for vertical guidance but it's not worth the chance.

i hear you on selling and buying but the cost in loss, rebuy and then upgrading the avionics of the new plane would be ridiculous. Other than maybe finding one already done or buying new again not cost effective. 

They have us by the nuts what else can I say?

[Jeff_S]

Dan, I'm glad you have regular contract with Paul K at Mooney. But in case you missed the thread, we had more in-depth discussions with Jerry Chen and others at the Mooney Summit in October, and one of our Mooneyspce members (call sign Deb, real name David) has been looking into this a lot. Last word from the factory was that the certification program was supposed to start in Q1.  You and Don are both correct that the G1000 certification is owned by Mooney, and it is their job (although working with Garmin) to come up with the fix.

That said, David's exploration with both Garmin and Mooney suggests that the software already exists that SHOULD allow all this to work, it just needs to be tested. I won't go into the details of which components will be needed...GTX33ES's, new antennae, GDL88's and the like. The real issue, as you've noted, is what the cost will be. To that, Dave has suggested, and I would agree, that we all gang up on Mooney and press for a solution but commit to a purchase as well...maybe that will spur them along.

Finally, it should be noted that one piece Garmin DOES need to certify is the GDL88 input of ADS-B info the G1000. All reports are they are working on this, and there are plenty of planes (thousands perhaps?) in all makes and models who would like to have this capability. Given the 2020 mandate, I have no doubt this will happen eventually.

[Danb]

Jeff, agreed I've been in contact with Dave also (btw very nice people), on the cost issue they don't  know obviously but I was pressing the issue with Paul and asked him to try and estimate and his words were the waas with vertical nav., would likely be around $25-&27,000, the exchange of the 330  for 330es would approximate $5,000 including swapping out the mfd and pfd plus the software upgrades. The good thing is that the factory don't have to do it, a MSC qualified in the exchange or a Garmin shop would do the job. I only hope the cost stays under 40k, quite a lot in any regard. Also even though many of us are pressing the issue Mooney still is barely moving on this project, that's what has me totally pissed. Is it time to try to get a good group together and do a class action suit? We need to get them moving along. Over a year ago it was supposed to be 1st quarter of 2015 then 3rd quarter now 1st of 2016. Well when then?

[kmyfm20s]

WAAS is the future. Here a list of ground base Nav Stations and approaches to be eliminated.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-11-10/pdf/2015-28478.pdf

[Piloto]

As per FAA records: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/a1509e623c8a36d786256f7a0069c7df/$FILE/SA01477SE.pdf

The STC of the G1000s on Bravos and Ovations is held by Garmin and not by Mooney. Another option is to have an avionics shop develop an STC for the installation of WAAS G1000s on Mooneys. As shown on the FAA records this has done before for other planes.

José

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, Piloto said:

The update to WAAS of the G1000 is a Garmin matter. Mooney can't do anything except wait for a Garmin solution. The fastest solution would be to upgrade the G1000 to the same level as on the Acclaim. Check with Garmin for a possible upgrade.

José

I think the Garmin gorilla needs to be fed $$$$ for this to move forward. Deb will know more.

[Piloto]

The most feasible option I see on this is for an MSC like Premier take the initiative on developing an STC using components used on the Acclaim to be adapted for the M20R and M20M. Premier will make it's profit on the sale and installation of the equipment.

A WAAS STC would require less testing and certification efforts than those involved on the engine Rocket coversion or the long range tanks that required spins and GVT testing.

José

[PMcClure]

To give you a reference for the cost to upgrade to WAAS and ADS-B out and In consider this. I have a 2002 Ovation that came with a KFC 225 A/P and 430 and 530 receiver. Prior to my ownership, the 530 was converted to a 530W and a GDL 69 data link. That was a $15,000 upgrade. Adding ADS-B in and out and linking it to the 530 and adding a 406 ELT looks like it will cost about $6-$9,000. So even to bring the stock analog system up to the same standard of a full G-1000 WAAS with ADS B in and out with Data link, I am over $20k. 

 

But at least there is a path to do it!

 

[KSMooniac]

It could have been cheaper than that as well.  In 2007 I got the double-WAAS upgrade (530/430) for $3400 out the door.  A few years later I added the GTX-330ES for $4500 out the door.

That of course doesn't have ADS-B IN, but I'm content to use a cheap portable solution for that since the tablet displays are far superior to any Garmin screen.