Alex's M20D (continuous thread)

[RLCarter]

A project of this magnitude is impossible to put a time frame on, independent A&P's can't afford to devote the time without the risk of loosing their other customers. When I started my project I had a list of things that had to be done and a list that I wanted to do, I then got with my IA and had him do the same two list. After adding the lists together we sat down again and came up with an order in which things should be done along with a hourly time frame for each item. Over the past 18 months the master list has changed many times. The list is now down to the last 32hrs or so, but it can't be looked at as being less than a weeks worth of work, those that have ever taken on a project like this (plane, motorcycle, car...etc) knows it doesn't work that way. Raising hell with your A&P for taking too long for an oil change is one thing, pushing them on something like this is just asking for trouble

[Marauder]

One thing that does comes with long term ownership is the knowledge of when you are being fed a line of bull. My plane is in for my 26th annual. I have said to a mechanic "Don't tell me that it takes 3 days to repack wheel bearings".

I have found a few shops over the years that I clearly need to mentor through the process. Otherwise you get tangents that can add substantial time. I also act preventatively so that my down time isn't the result of a pile of things that need to be done. They are done on my schedule. As well, if the shop is willing, I will pre-order parts or order them during the annual so I have control and visibility over the turnaround time.

Then there are shops that are efficient and you give them the keys knowing that the TAT will be done in a reasonable amount of time.

BTW -- I am currently dealing with a TAT issue with my current annual. My shop sold last year and the guy who bought it is certainly not living up to the efficiency the previous owner maintained.

 

[bonal]

18 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If you walked into my shop with the same attitude you're displaying here, you'd likely leave with sore balls, and a bruised back side from the door hitting you.

We've yet to hear from the maintainer, perhaps there is more going on than we know.

Clarence

Well I certainly would never be rude but there are plenty of cases where people get taken advantage of and not just in the world of GA and it usually happened when jobbers think the person might not be experienced with the work or just too nice to create a stir if things aren't getting done as agreed.

[N6758N]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

One thing that does comes with long term ownership is the knowledge of when you are being fed a line of bull. My plane is in for my 26th annual. I have said to a mechanic "Don't tell me that it takes 3 days to repack wheel bearings".

I have found a few shops over the years that I clearly need to mentor through the process. Otherwise you get tangents that can add substantial time. I also act preventatively so that my down time isn't the result of a pile of things that need to be done. They are done on my schedule. As well, if the shop is willing, I will pre-order parts or order them during the annual so I have control and visibility over the turnaround time.

Then there are shops that are efficient and you give them the keys knowing that the TAT will be done in a reasonable amount of time.

BTW -- I am currently dealing with a TAT issue with my current annual. My shop sold last year and the guy who bought it is certainly not living up to the efficiency the previous owner maintained.

 

Chris,

Told you to take it to me  Hope all is well!

[Marauder]

7 hours ago, Marauder said: One thing that does comes with long term ownership is the knowledge of when you are being fed a line of bull. My plane is in for my 26th annual. I have said to a mechanic "Don't tell me that it takes 3 days to repack wheel bearings".

I have found a few shops over the years that I clearly need to mentor through the process. Otherwise you get tangents that can add substantial time. I also act preventatively so that my down time isn't the result of a pile of things that need to be done. They are done on my schedule. As well, if the shop is willing, I will pre-order parts or order them during the annual so I have control and visibility over the turnaround time.

Then there are shops that are efficient and you give them the keys knowing that the TAT will be done in a reasonable amount of time.

BTW -- I am currently dealing with a TAT issue with my current annual. My shop sold last year and the guy who bought it is certainly not living up to the efficiency the previous owner maintained.

 

Chris,

Told you to take it to me  Hope all is well!

I thought you were out of the business! BTW -- I will PM you. I do have some side jobs if you are looking for some work.

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[1524J]

On June 10, 2016 at 9:17 PM, Raptor05121 said:

I am leaving for a 2-week vacation in Alaska next weekend and I won't be back until July, so I'm HOPING that my plane will be ready before my 25th birthday (July 22).

You're one day younger than my son. He's also right at 100 hours in the log book. A little advice to counter what others may be giving you....rarely does it do any good to be condescending or rude to those you're doing business with. If you can't agree on conditions or terms, walk away....politely.

If you can spare the time and your A&P doesn't mind, ask if you can help. You'll learn to appreciate the work and knowledge your A&P brings to the table. You'll also have pride in doing some of the work yourself. I've gotten to the point where I enjoy working on my "C" as much as I do flying it. I had my son attend Maxwell's maintenance seminar as a condition of him flying the Mooney.

[Hector]

Some very good points by everyone. I'm a first time owner with only 5 years of ownership experience and I made my share of mistakes. I learned from those mistakes as well as all the input from the folks here. To Alex I would say there are some very good Mooney mechanics in this state. After you get your plane back maybe something to consider for future annuals. Quite a few in central Florida which is not far at all. I'll be more than glad to fly down with you to drop off your bird and take you back when it's time to pick her up. Hopefully after you get all the big stuff taken care of, future annuals will be easier and it can help a lot to learn how to do a lot of the maintenance yourself. As others have already said I enjoy working on my plane a lot, but more importantly, I know the condition of my plane inside out. That being said, I still rely on my mechanic to put eyeballs on everything to make sure I didn't miss something, and occasionally he does and that's just how I like it. I also know my limitations and there is stuff that I just let him fix.

[Raptor05121]

Thanks for the worries, guys. Can't get this kind of brotherhood on Piper or Cessna forums.

I'm posting from Toronto-Pearson Intl'l airport after I missed my connection, I now have a 5 hour wait until the next flight to Vancouver. Time to do some reading of Mike Busch's books in the meantime.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

Thanks for the worries, guys. Can't get this kind of brotherhood on Piper or Cessna forums.

I'm posting from Toronto-Pearson Intl'l airport after I missed my connection, I now have a 5 hour wait until the next flight to Vancouver. Time to do some reading of Mike Busch's books in the meantime.

Welcome to Canada, I'm just down the road at CYKF.

Clarence

[macosxuser]

I promise that "Pushing" your mechanic isn't the right approach for anyone. If "Pushing" gets your airplane done faster, you don't want that guy working on it! I speak from 13 years on A&P work in GA, 12 years managing them, 5 years of ownership (and now 3 of my own airplanes). The things that get overlooked when you start rushing people will scare the crap out of any sane person. If you have someone that does good work and FINDS SQUAWKS, you can definitely put up with them taking the time to do it right. From the pictures I've seen, this guy is going a little overboard, but there is NOTHING wrong with that on an airplane that has been neglected. I can't even begin to tell you the things I have found in airplanes that have been passing annual and flying.

 

Good work, I bought my first airplane at 24, 1970 Citabria, still have it. I am fortunate enough to share it with other people through a trusted flight school, and use that money to pay for my E project!

[Raptor05121]

No news yet

I'm still finding myself looking back at the day we flew it home for the first time. I am really missing seeing that slick wing. Do we have any members in the N. Fla area that could take me up and get me excited again? I'll buy gas and lunch

[Marauder]

No news yet

I'm still finding myself looking back at the day we flew it home for the first time. I am really missing seeing that slick wing. Do we have any members in the N. Fla area that could take me up and get me excited again? I'll buy gas and lunch

I admire your patience. There is no way I could wait as long as you have -- no matter how nice the final product.

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[Raptor05121]

I'm not going to lie, I should have skipped buying this plane. In the year I've had it, I could've saved $10,000 and put a down payment on a nice, turn-key, $40k example with GPS.

[rbridges]

2 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I'm not going to lie, I should have skipped buying this plane. In the year I've had it, I could've saved $10,000 and put a down payment on a nice, turn-key, $40k example with GPS.

true, but now you have a plane that you know very well and have gone through with a fine toothed comb.  

[RLCarter]

5 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I'm not going to lie, I should have skipped buying this plane. In the year I've had it, I could've saved $10,000 and put a down payment on a nice, turn-key, $40k example with GPS.

Alex,
Your preaching to the choir, I purchased my "E" 23 months ago and I'm in the final stages of getting it back in the air (next week hopefully). I knew going into the purchase what NEEDED to be done and what I WANTED to be done, and then there's always the things that pop up along the way. I had originally planned around 6~8 months (and this was high, so I thought), but the more I dug into it the more I wanted to do while I was there. I've followed your progress from day one, and know exactly where you are coming from. Would I do it differently? Maybe , or maybe not, it all depends on the aircraft and what my plans are for it. I looked at several Mooneys (2 "C's", an "F" and a "G") that were all in annual and I could fly away in, some had descent radios, some had nice interiors and one was just junk. I'm not out to impress anyone by buying an aircraft that they would like, steam gauges and my Ipad can get me anywhere i want to go. When its all said and done we (you and I) will know more about our birds than most, and our next 3 to 5 annuals should be a cake walk. Stick with it, it will get finished and be right. The knowledge you have gained is almost priceless, not sure on your budget but I'm still south of 30k which I'm fine with.

[Marauder]

Alex -- maybe you can get it to a state that is flyable and not yet perfect. As a long time owner (25 years) of the same plane, I am still doing improvements. I just space them out over time.

Start with getting the plane back together and then draw up a plan to address remaining issues. I like for things to all work and be perfect. If you approach aviation that way, you will never fly the plane. There is always one more thing to work on. Good luck!

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[steingar]

21 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I'm not going to lie, I should have skipped buying this plane. In the year I've had it, I could've saved $10,000 and put a down payment on a nice, turn-key, $40k example with GPS.

I spent a crapload on mine and its still been down with problems for weeks.  Its just airplanes.

[bonal]

I expected my second, well ok maybe third oh well nope not the forth annual either to be the one that comes in as not too bad.  Its all relevant lots of owners would kill to get down to what I pay but then that's not model specific.  with these old birds just because you get them tip top this year doesn't mean next years will be a piece of cake. But I do agree with the fact that getting your hands dirty and working on them with your mech gives you a much better idea of what's going on with all the systems. Raptor, I like all the other folks here are looking forward to your first flight.  Hang tough man.

[jkhirsch]

Alex, I wish I would have read through this earlier, I had my plane up at Gainesville and another buddy actually staying in Lake City for work the last 2 weeks and I would have made some arrangements to get up with you.

I've read everything in this thread and empathize with you completely as a young owner.

I have run into instances of "jealousy" or just basically "ageism" because, 'why or how should someone that young be able to have a plane.' It matters not if you built it for free from scratch with parts you found washed up on the beach, all that matters is you have it, and 'they don't' or 'didn't when they were that age.' It also leaves the door opens for a lot of assumptions about, 'well if he has a plane then he can afford it.' Doesn't matter what other sacrifices you have made for it. That's not what aviation is about.

Aviation is about camaraderie and there are plenty older guys who love to see the young guys passionate about it and not worried about the "Jones's." Which is why I'll stop and listen to what anyone has to say. Keep it all in perspective and keep trudging.

On topic: Do you have a list readily available of what tasks are remaining?

 

[Hector]

No news yet

I'm still finding myself looking back at the day we flew it home for the first time. I am really missing seeing that slick wing. Do we have any members in the N. Fla area that could take me up and get me excited again? I'll buy gas and lunch

Alex, I'm in Jacksonville so pretty close. Doing my biannual Saturday morning but I can take you up Sunday. Next weekend I'll be making her clean and pretty for the trip to Oshkosh. Let me know.

[Raptor05121]

jk, sorry I missed you. Are you local to Florida?

Hector where will you be, CRG? HEG? I rent a Cherokee 180 out of LCQ and can be over there in 25 minutes. Maybe we could go south to KFIN and I'll buy you lunch

[mpg]

On 7/7/2016 at 8:07 PM, RLCarter said:

^^^^^^^  dont know why that got into this post ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

.....................................................................................................................

this is my post.............................................................................................

I know this is off topic,,,   but what calendar are you using???

 

On 6/17/2016 at 6:08 AM, RLCarter said:

I feel your pain, I purchased my "E" 18 months ago 

 

On 7/7/2016 at 8:07 PM, RLCarter said:

Alex,
Your preaching to the choir, I purchased my "E" 23 months ago 

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by mpg

[RLCarter]

MPG,

You can "quote" me all you want, but the first quote above is your words not mine. Yes I reference 2 different dates, when in actuality there are 3 (a) the day I took possession,  (b) the day I handed over the cash, (c) the day I started working on it, so you pick which one you would like me to use as a reference. As for my calendar, I use a rock and place a mark on the side of my hangar each day I'm out there. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Skmoore63 said:

Really good point macosxuser - my old C model had been maintained by the same mechanic for more than a decade and came through the pre-purchase inspection pretty well. But as I read the previous annual write-ups I had the feeling that the mechanic was a little too familiar with the airplane and the owner wasn't too interested in finding problems either. So although I trained as an A & P in college (but fortunately for the industry never worked as one) I left my new bird to the local mechanic for the first annual with just the instructions to "make it right." It's amazing what a new set of eyes on the bird with no time pressure found. Nearly all of the pushrod bushings were worn past limits, the vacuum pump was hooked up improperly allowing vacuum loss/overworking the pump/dirt in the system, airplane badly misrigged, corrosion on most of the pushrods, etc. Over the course of the last year and a half he/we have made the airplane super-tight and reliable. It's been costly, but when I flew my daughter to a college seminar last weekend - it was good knowing nothing has been neglected intentionally. I am definitely cheap in some areas of life, but just can't do it with an airplane. This is my regular commuter bird flown weekly in all sorts of weather.

Just to echo what macoxuser said, "I can't even begin to tell you the things I have found in airplanes that have been passing annual and flying." I'm not saying the previous mechanic was bad or the owner unconcerned - the airplane flew safely and didn't kill anyone for more than a decade -- but it is nice to strap into my 51 year old airplane that has been looked at and worked on conscientiously and critically. 

My mother used to say "water seeks its own level". A frugal owner will most always find a maintainer with a crappy flashlight but a good pen.

Clarence

[Hector]

jk, sorry I missed you. Are you local to Florida?

Hector where will you be, CRG? HEG? I rent a Cherokee 180 out of LCQ and can be over there in 25 minutes. Maybe we could go south to KFIN and I'll buy you lunch

Crap, I missed you. Had my biannual on Saturday with a new CFI. Guy was very thorough. Gave me a 50 question multiple choice test. He had me read the questions and tell him the answers. Then went out and did multiple stall configurations (to full stalled condition), steep turns, slow flight, unusual attitudes, and three T&G's (no flaps, partial flaps, and full flaps). Good CFI and I learned some too. Any time you want to meet at KFIN let me know.