N252BQ

[Bill_Carter]

In my search for a Mooney I am considering N252BQ which is a Rocket. Does anyone know anything about this particular plane?

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1987-MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1353043.htm

 

Thanks!

[LANCECASPER]

The Rocket is a very fast airplane.

 

One thing to consider is that TBO on that engine is 1600 hours even though the seller has it listed as 1800. http://www.aircraftbluebook.com/Tools/ABB/ShowEngines.do?sortKey=&sortOrder=&pageIndex=10

So overhaul costs per hour plus fuel costs per hour are the highest of just about any Mooney. Of course you're going faster so less hours per distance traveled also. 

 

I would also be surprised if at over 1000 hours SMOH it didn't need new cylinders - most turbocharged engines do unless they are flown very conservatively. It looks like the Rocket Conversion was signed off 9/15/1993 (he says in the ad September 1994) , so about 22 years ago. Back in 2008 ads show it as having 1955 TT back then and now it only has 1855? Or is he saying 1855 since the Rocket Conversion? It looks like the same owner since 2006.

 

It's a 252 airframe which means it's more desirable than a 231 Rocket Conversion (one piece belly, 28V, more modern panel etc.)

[Bill_Carter]

The Rocket is a very fast airplane.

 

One thing to consider is that TBO on that engine is 1600 hours even though the seller has it listed as 1800. http://www.aircraftbluebook.com/Tools/ABB/ShowEngines.do?sortKey=&sortOrder=&pageIndex=10

So overhaul costs per hour plus fuel costs per hour are about the highest of just about any Mooney. Of course you're going faster so less hours per distance traveled also. If 

 

I would also be surprised if at over 1000 hours SMOH it didn't need new cylinders - most turbocharged engines do unless they are flown very conservatively.

 

 

I didn't know the TBO was 1600! That makes it a non-starter for me. It takes it out of my cost-of-ownership wallet capacity. I guess I will keep looking!

[Seth]

What is your mission? The Rocket is amazing performance for the price, but again, what is your mission? The collective wisdom of Mooneyspace may be able to point you don a few parallel paths.

-Seth

[StevenL757]

It might help to put a max cost as to what you're willing to spend as well, so we can help narrow down searches and make more meaningful recommendations for you.

Regards, Steve

[Bill_Carter]

Well, my main mission is traveling from VA HEF to IN OVO and back 2-4 times a month (about 400nm once you get around the MOA) including as much as possible in the winter. Other flights would include vacations such as FL once or twice a year and heading over the Rockies once or twice a year to see my kids. Other than that, just flying to stay proficient. A TLS FIKI is out of my price range and I am trying to stay around 100K or less. 

 

Cancelling a flight to OVO is not out of the question, no real pressure that I have to be there. However, once I am there I have to get back to HEF on time. If all else fails, and the weather does something not forcast, an airline ticket would be bought.

 

I just starting IR training and hope to be instrument rated by mid OCT.

[Houman]

As a Rocket owner, I say it is an amazing plane performance wise, but it is very costly.

If you were still interested in that plane, as I understand it is no longer the case, you would have to do a good pre-purchase view before you do even an inspection in it. The TBO for rocket is 1600, but you have to consider that 1h in a rocket equals maybe 1h20m in a J... It is faster so takes you shorter time to get there so less engine used.

Also consider that in a Turbo engine, it is more complexe and Turbo overhaul can run you 2 to 4 AMU and needs to be done at every 800h according to my information, anyway, I bought a Rocket last year and I do not regret it one second, my accountant has another view of it, but hell, he dos'nt fly it or work to earn it...

[Jerry 5TJ]

TKS

You could buy a nice vintage Mooney and add TKS for under $100K total.  There is an "F" on Controller.com at $80K with TKS.  

 

TBO

The difference between 1600 and 2000 hour TBO is not the most important cost factor in ownership, by far.

 

 

[HRM]

I may be confusing a Missile with a Rocket, but I believe my IA said something about having to drop the engine forward to get to anything.

 

My point is that you may want to ask some Mooney wrenches about maintenance because these are upgrades to existing difficult to repair aircraft.

[Bill_Carter]

TKS

You could buy a nice vintage Mooney and add TKS for under $100K total.  There is an "F" on Controller.com at $80K with TKS.  

 

TBO

The difference between 1600 and 2000 hour TBO is not the most important cost factor in ownership, by far.

 

The F with TKS lives in Germany. So not too sure about that. 

 

Based on my mission, what do you all recommend? I was really thinking a 231 with Merlyn and Intercooler to be able to get above bad weather (not weather such as thunderstorms of course). I had been considering a J, but for a good one, I can get a 231 and a J won't get me up and over. Maybe I am off in my thinking so straighten me out if I am.

[Marauder]

Your key phrase for me was "including as much as possible in the winter". A turbo would get you above weather but you will still to fly the approach in the weather. I would concentrate on finding at a minimum a plane with FIKI.

[Bill_Carter]

Your key phrase for me was "including as much as possible in the winter". A turbo would get you above weather but you will still to fly the approach in the weather. I would concentrate on finding at a minimum a plane with FIKI.

 

I have looked around for FIKI, but so far they are way above my price envelope. I figure my trips will just have to be in better weather in the winter unless I can come across a really good deal. 

 

Anyone know how much Cav charges for a FIKI system on a K? 

[KSMooniac]

A new install of TKS will be well north of $40k and you can't get FIKI on the single battery/alternator planes I believe. Best to buy it already installed.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Bill_Carter]

I think I would rather go commercial anyway if there is a chance of ice. I have been in enough freezing rain on the ground to know I don't want any of that in the air.

[Marauder]

I think I would rather go commercial anyway if there is a chance of ice. I have been in enough freezing rain on the ground to know I don't want any of that in the air.

Trying to get a high dispatch rate in the winter out of a non-FIKI airplane in our neck of the woods can be problematic. I flew for a number of years in western NY and just passing through the typical winter stratus was enough to pick up some ice even when it was not forecasted.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bill_Carter]

Hey Marauder, I noticed your in Delaware. The Dover AFB flight club ended up with my dad's C172 that he bought new and flew from the factory in Wichita when I was a kid. I want to get over there and see it again some day. They told me I was welcome to come anytime and fly it.

 

So how did you handle the ice in W NY? I assume you are referring to light rime ice?

[Marauder]

Hey Marauder, I noticed your in Delaware. The Dover AFB flight club ended up with my dad's C172 that he bought new and flew from the factory in Wichita when I was a kid. I want to get over there and see it again some day. They told me I was welcome to come anytime and fly it.

So how did you handle the ice in W NY? I assume you are referring to light rime ice?

I have been down to the museum on the base a couple of times. I do remember seeing the club's planes there.

As for WNY flying... forecasted ice, no go; PIREPS of ice, no go; stratus or cloud tops beyond 6,000, no go; <1,000 bases along route/approaches, no go.

Winter flying is rough near the lakes. I still remember a guy a few miles ahead of me and at the same altitude picking up significant ice and I saw nothing through the same area.

You need to be conservative when all you got to protect yourself is a pitot heater and a 40 year windshield defroster.

[Marauder]

And ask for the type of ice, it was everything.

[StevenL757]

Well, my main mission is traveling from VA HEF to IN OVO and back 2-4 times a month (about 400nm once you get around the MOA) including as much as possible in the winter. Other flights would include vacations such as FL once or twice a year and heading over the Rockies once or twice a year to see my kids. Other than that, just flying to stay proficient. A TLS FIKI is out of my price range and I am trying to stay around 100K or less. 

 

Cancelling a flight to OVO is not out of the question, no real pressure that I have to be there. However, once I am there I have to get back to HEF on time. If all else fails, and the weather does something not forcast, an airline ticket would be bought.

 

I just starting IR training and hope to be instrument rated by mid OCT.

 

Excellent statement.

[Shadrach]

I've always liked everything about the rocket but the useful load. I think that 880lbs useful load is lackluster for a 300hp airplane. 

[Bill_Carter]

I am really having to weigh my options and what I am willing to pay for a plane. I think maybe I should come down out of the clouds and look for F or J. Perhaps my dispatch rate won't be as high, but I am OK with that. I can take the airlines in the winter if I need too. Besides, the less I spend the happier momma is!

[carusoam]

Consider how happy Momma would be sitting in a nice O...

Momma's not going to be very happy sitting next to a leaky door with ragged welting flapping in the breeze...

Been there, done both, surprised at the outcome....

Just sayin',

-a-

[KevinR]

Hi Bill,

 

Just a few thoughts from a very happy Rocket owner.

1. going over hours on the TBO doesn't concern me. Your engine won't magically disintegrate between 1600 and 2000 hours.  I'd be far more concerned with going 21 years without a peek inside the case. How much do you trust every pilot / mechanic / line guy who touched the plane in the past two decades?
2. If you are comfortable flying up high, the turbo bolted on the TSIO-520 is your best piece of deice gear. You can almost always find an ice-free altitude. I've yet to meet a Turbo Mooney owner who uses their TKS more than once or twice a year. I'm sure they are out there but I haven't met them. 
3. If you don't want to routinely fly above 10,000, the Rocket isn't the right airplane for you. She is much happier / faster above 15,000.  
4. You really can pull the power back and see 252ish numbers (speed v. fuel burn)
5. or you can burn some dead dinosaurs and do 225 KTAS at FL210
6. VA to Florida is an easy trip. 1000NM is safe in zero wind or tailwind. Plane endurance > most human bladders. Getting up and over the Rockies is a non-event in this plane. 
7. The Rocket has a fully feathering prop because the engine used to live on a twin. That means you have a ridiculous 17:1 glide ratio. At FL 180, you can cross 100 miles over water and still glide to land. That makes me a lot more comfortable flying to the islands or over the mountains. 
8. I don't think the maintenance costs are much different from a 252. Might be lower because the -520 isn't working very hard in this configuration if you treat it right. But it's an airplane so it will get in your pocket. See my last post. I don't think the overhaul cost is much different. 
9. Rocket support is first class. 
10. I can't imagine flying this airplane without an instrument rating. Contrary to popular lore, it's pretty easy to slow the plane down and go downhill. You just have to plan ahead. A few minutes before you want to descend, start reducing power. I shoot for 15-20 degrees per minute cooldown rate. I can get 1,000 to 1,500 FPM downhill within a couple of minutes. During the descent I continue to reduce power (watching the cooldown rate). By the time I'm at pattern altitude, I'm below gear speed. I'm smiling if I can hit my approach speed without using speedbrakes, never exceeding 15 degrees per minute cooldown, and never increasing power after I start reducing power from my cruising altitude. Takes planning (and a little ATC help) but it usually works. That approach will hopefully let the engine live a long happy life.
11. Be prepared to burn some gas. On short trips, you spend a large % of the time with the throttle up & full rich. That is 28GPH territory. 
12. The Rocket is a perfect fit for my mission: 1-2 people, frequent long trips where the extra 20-40 knots really adds up.  That speed makes the difference between getting home and spending an extra night in a hotel. In order to get a meaningful speed increase, I'll have to buy something that burns Jet-A.
13. The Rocket would not be a good choice for fun flying / staying current IMO. There are many cheaper options. The Rocket makes sense for someone trying to minimize travel time, not total cost of ownership.
14. Find a good Mooney shop. Don Maxwell did my prebuy. It wasn't cheap but I knew exactly what I was getting. 
15. I like high time airplanes and don't mind damage history if the right shop did the repairs. My plane had an off-airport landing 13 years ago. So instead of a 30 year old airplane, I have some 30 year old components that were disassembled, inspected, and reassembled 13 years ago. I like that better than having an airframe that hasn't been down to its bones in 3 decades. And the price is right! High-time is relative in our airplanes. Most GA airplanes rot, not wear out. I'd rather have a plane that flew 150 hours per year over 30 years. 

Good luck with your search. This forum has a wealth of knowledge. Be patient and find the right bird for your mission!

[Bill_Carter]

Excellent write up Kevin. That seems to layout the Rocket well. My mission doesn't require frequent extended legs, but frequent shorter 400nm legs with the occasional long leg. Granted, that 400nm leg would be doubled in the return flight which would be the next day or two later making it an 800nm round trip. Speed is certainly a desire, hence the reason I am on Mooney Space and not Cessna Space or some other site. (Not sure if there really is a Cessna Space, I made that up LOL).

 

I honestly think I can afford the airplane until it comes down to maintenance other than your run of the mill stuff. I am now looking at options to increase cash flow to get the plane I want rather than settle for something else. Buying a plane sure is a process. I don't want my plane to be the one rotting on the ramp that I can't sell because I couldn't maintain it and can't afford to fly it.

 

There is a wealth of knowledge on this site. I really appreciate everyone's point of view. It gives me what I need to make a good decision. I don't post a bunch on other people's thread, but I do read them. If I have something of value to add or a question, I will post though.

[Houman]

Hi Bill,

 

Just a few thoughts from a very happy Rocket owner.

1. going over hours on the TBO doesn't concern me. Your engine won't magically disintegrate between 1600 and 2000 hours.  I'd be far more concerned with going 21 years without a peek inside the case. How much do you trust every pilot / mechanic / line guy who touched the plane in the past two decades?
2. If you are comfortable flying up high, the turbo bolted on the TSIO-520 is your best piece of deice gear. You can almost always find an ice-free altitude. I've yet to meet a Turbo Mooney owner who uses their TKS more than once or twice a year. I'm sure they are out there but I haven't met them. 
3. If you don't want to routinely fly above 10,000, the Rocket isn't the right airplane for you. She is much happier / faster above 15,000.  
4. You really can pull the power back and see 252ish numbers (speed v. fuel burn)
5. or you can burn some dead dinosaurs and do 225 KTAS at FL210
6. VA to Florida is an easy trip. 1000NM is safe in zero wind or tailwind. Plane endurance > most human bladders. Getting up and over the Rockies is a non-event in this plane. 
7. The Rocket has a fully feathering prop because the engine used to live on a twin. That means you have a ridiculous 17:1 glide ratio. At FL 180, you can cross 100 miles over water and still glide to land. That makes me a lot more comfortable flying to the islands or over the mountains. 
8. I don't think the maintenance costs are much different from a 252. Might be lower because the -520 isn't working very hard in this configuration if you treat it right. But it's an airplane so it will get in your pocket. See my last post. I don't think the overhaul cost is much different. 
9. Rocket support is first class. 
10. I can't imagine flying this airplane without an instrument rating. Contrary to popular lore, it's pretty easy to slow the plane down and go downhill. You just have to plan ahead. A few minutes before you want to descend, start reducing power. I shoot for 15-20 degrees per minute cooldown rate. I can get 1,000 to 1,500 FPM downhill within a couple of minutes. During the descent I continue to reduce power (watching the cooldown rate). By the time I'm at pattern altitude, I'm below gear speed. I'm smiling if I can hit my approach speed without using speedbrakes, never exceeding 15 degrees per minute cooldown, and never increasing power after I start reducing power from my cruising altitude. Takes planning (and a little ATC help) but it usually works. That approach will hopefully let the engine live a long happy life.
11. Be prepared to burn some gas. On short trips, you spend a large % of the time with the throttle up & full rich. That is 28GPH territory. 
12. The Rocket is a perfect fit for my mission: 1-2 people, frequent long trips where the extra 20-40 knots really adds up.  That speed makes the difference between getting home and spending an extra night in a hotel. In order to get a meaningful speed increase, I'll have to buy something that burns Jet-A.
13. The Rocket would not be a good choice for fun flying / staying current IMO. There are many cheaper options. The Rocket makes sense for someone trying to minimize travel time, not total cost of ownership.
14. Find a good Mooney shop. Don Maxwell did my prebuy. It wasn't cheap but I knew exactly what I was getting. 
15. I like high time airplanes and don't mind damage history if the right shop did the repairs. My plane had an off-airport landing 13 years ago. So instead of a 30 year old airplane, I have some 30 year old components that were disassembled, inspected, and reassembled 13 years ago. I like that better than having an airframe that hasn't been down to its bones in 3 decades. And the price is right! High-time is relative in our airplanes. Most GA airplanes rot, not wear out. I'd rather have a plane that flew 150 hours per year over 30 years. 

Good luck with your search. This forum has a wealth of knowledge. Be patient and find the right bird for your mission!

 

Kevin, this is a very good write-up, I have to admit that at the beginnig, with my Rocket, I was either descending too late, too fast or got to my patern altitude too fast and had to use my speed brakes alot..... this amazing plane takes much more planning than less efficient ones to slow down. I'm not IFR yet, but doing it and hopefully will be within 2 or 3 months max.

 

I now calculate my descent rate while in cruise and determine how many NM before destination I need to start my descent, then work backwords to start reducing power from the normal 31 MP that I cruise in to 25, I do that at the rate of 1 MP per 2 minutes, just to be easier on the engine for the temp changes, even though Rocket says 1 MP per minute, if you plan in advance, why not be baby the engine...

 

It seems work well, my descent are easier now going to 25 MP over 22 RPM and my speed stays within the green arc, near yellow but still within the green...

 

Bill, the Rocket is alot of plane, so make sure to get good transition training depending on your level of experience and as you said, MooneySpace is amazing source to seek good advice on everything...