Unintensional spin ( 201)

[steingar]

I get to be the gadfly.  An accidental stall/spin usually happens in the landing pattern, low and slow catching up a turn with the rudder.  Even the best aerobatic pilot would have trouble recovering that, I doubt any of us could, things happen too fast and you're too low.  I keep my speeds up in the pattern and step on the ball.  I also fly fairly wide patterns.  I know, if the engine takes a dump I'm in real dutch.  But how often does the engine take a dump after a flight in the landing pattern?  Yeah, if you're low on gas, but there is that whole switching tanks thing.  Stall/spins in the pattern?  Lots and lots. My thoughts.

I'm happy to do stalls in the Mooney. I've yet to do a cross-controlled stall, only because I haven't had a flight review in the Mooney where I could get that high.  I want some serious altitude under me before I do that.  Did plenty in my 150 and my Cherokee, and they certainly got my attention.

The fellow who got his Mooney in a spin and froze at the controls might want to rethink his choice of recreational activities.

[donkaye]

My recommendation: Don't do cross controlled stalls in a Mooney.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Inadvertent_Spins_in_a_Mooney.html

[Marauder]

51 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Mooney  spins-  Had a conversation once with Bill Wheat  He related a time he did a spin and it went 5 1/2 turns because he was having a tough time getting it out of the spin after 3 turns,  he said he'd never try that again in a Mooney. Maybe there's a reason why Mooneys are not certified for spins? 

Did lots of spins in a 150 before I got my Private, my instructor required it.

My Commercial ride consisted of two turns about a point and spins for the next 45 mins. That's all. The DPE was a retired FAA GADO manager This was all back in the mid 60s. 

Do you remember if his name was Wilbur or Orville?

Bill Wheat had some great stories of the certification process. I always enjoyed listening to the humble man speak about situations in a Mooney that would make my palms sweat just listening to them.

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

My recommendation: Don't do cross controlled stalls in a Mooney.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Inadvertent_Spins_in_a_Mooney.html

I don't do flight reviews in my Mooney unless I know that the CFI has significant Mooney time. Even if that means renting a 172 for the flight review. 

[donkaye]

6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I don't do flight reviews in my Mooney unless I know that the CFI has significant Mooney time. Even if that means renting a 172 for the flight review. 

I do think it is important to do the flight review in the plane you fly most often.  I personally don't do the traditional flight review anymore.  I think more benefit comes from doing a phase of the WingsProgram where, as an Instructor, I can concentrate on the flying and the student gets more benefit from doing the 3 required Knowledge requirements online.  There is also a benefit to the student if they should unintentionally break an FAR in that you get one free "Get out of Jail"  card every eighteen months.

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Marauder said:

I don't do flight reviews in my Mooney unless I know that the CFI has significant Mooney time. Even if that means renting a 172 for the flight review. 

Chris, I really dont understand your logic here. Personally, I seek out the most knowledgeable CFI's I can for my wings credits/flight reviews, as it is training, not testing. You wouldnt have to worry about being UWOF in your plane with the right CFI. Changing planes adds still yet another unknown to your risk equation. 

 

[Marauder]

Just now, donkaye said:

I do think it is important to do the flight review in the plane you fly most often.  I personally don't do the traditional flight review anymore.  I think more benefit comes from doing a phase of the Wing Program where, as an Instructor, I can concentrate on the flying and the student gets more benefit from doing the 3 required Knowledge requirements online.

I don't disagree with you on flying the review in the plane you fly most often. But when it comes to flying a review in my own plane versus flying the review with a newbie CFI with no Mooney time, I'll stick with another plane. It only take once to scare the crap out of me.

I was participating in the Wings program but haven't done so in a few years. Might be time to get back into the stages... The CFI I fly with for routine IPCs does find ways to intermingle some basic airmanship and regs in to spice things up. I think pilots who stop pursuing flying knowledge & perfection, put themselves at risk. I've always believed in the 3C mentality. I may be Current to fly, but if I am not Competent nor Confident to make a safe flight, I have no business being up there.

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I do think it is important to do the flight review in the plane you fly most often.  I personally don't do the traditional flight review anymore.  I think more benefit comes from doing a phase of the WingsProgram where, as an Instructor, I can concentrate on the flying and the student gets more benefit from doing the 3 required Knowledge requirements online.  There is also a benefit to the student if they should unintentionally break an FAR in that you get one free "Get out of Jail"  card every eighteen months.

I do my semi-annual flight review by a fellow who has the same philosophy.  A retired TWA captain, who is just a very wise and experienced pilot seems to follow the same idea you do and also likes to have me do those wings program tests and I am happy with that.  I really like my flight reviews with him as I always seem to come away having learned something that I did not know before.  Always some more nuggets of knowledge to learn and he is full of them.  I usually do my semi-annual about annually but I was tied up at around 12 months, and then by 15 months I was planning to do it and the pandemic started and he's not instructing right now.  SO I am wondering how I will get that in before the legal required 24 months passes.

E

[Marauder]

8 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Chris, I really dont understand your logic here. Personally, I seek out the most knowledgeable CFI's I can for my wings credits/flight reviews, as it is training, not testing. You wouldnt have to worry about being UWOF in your plane with the right CFI. Changing planes adds still yet another unknown to your risk equation. 

 

Mike - it has nothing to do with testing. It has everything to do with training. I should not be the one doing the training in the plane. Maybe it is a geographic thing, but we have a lot of young inexperienced CFIs at my airport. Finding the experienced qualified CFI is challenging (now that Jerry just got his CFI, hmmm... maybe I will give him a try).

As for the most knowledgeable comment. Funny you should mention that. For my flight review in 2018, I flew with a high time former airline pilot. He put me through a pretty thorough flight review. Who knew Aspen PFDs had chevron bars?

Anyways, felt like I learned a lot. Then a couple of weeks later I find out that he is slated for a 709 because he was the instructor involved in a ground loop accident the day after my flight review! When it comes to flight instructors, doctors (no offense Brad, Raul, John & David) and other professionals, I am careful about who I chose. 

[donkaye]

15 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I don't disagree with you on flying the review in the plane you fly most often. But when it comes to flying a review in my own plane versus flying the review with a newbie CFI with no Mooney time, I'll stick with another plane. It only take once to scare the crap out of me.

I was participating in the Wings program but haven't done so in a few years. Might be time to get back into the stages... The CFI I fly with for routine IPCs does find ways to intermingle some basic airmanship and regs in to spice things up. I think pilots who stop pursuing flying knowledge & perfection, put themselves at risk. I've always believed in the 3C mentality. I may be Current to fly, but if I am not Competent nor Confident to make a safe flight, I have no business being up there.

I, also, would recommend flying with a Mooney Specific CFI only.  Why would anyone do a Flight Review with someone who has no experience in your model airplane?  You're not going to go to an Orthopedic Surgeon for a heart problem, so why would you go to someone who knows nothing about a Mooney for instruction in that airplane?  Find someone who knows all of the subtleties of your airplane, and you will make much better use of the flight review.

[cliffy]

46 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Do you remember if his name was Wilbur or Orville?

Bill Wheat had some great stories of the certification process. I always enjoyed listening to the humble man speak about situations in a Mooney that would make my palms sweat just listening to them.

The commercial ride was also in my Cessna 140!!!  IIRC it spun somewhat tighter than a 150. I did 2 turns and a recovery each way a couple of times for him.  Took a while to climb back up each time (400-500 FPM)

Actually it was Octave :-)   Bet you can't guess the last name!  

My last BFR (or what ever they call it today)  I rented a 172 just for S&^%s and Grins. Presented a new dynamic that made me really think and accommodate to the new dynamic in performance that I wasn't used to. It was a challenge. He also makes me do the FAA on line test for the BFR before I get there. Counts as the ground school portion. Actually a good review every time. 

[Marauder]

Just now, donkaye said:

I, also, would recommend flying with a Mooney Specific CFI only.  Why would anyone do a Flight Review with someone who has no experience in your model airplane?  You're not going to go to an Orthopedic Surgeon for a heart problem, so why would you go to someone who knows nothing about a Mooney for instruction in that airplane?  Find someone who knows all of the subtleties of your airplane, and you will make much better use of the flight review.

Absolutely agree and that is the challenge in the area I live. Plenty of ER and Kent State grads with little, if any Mooney time. The CFII I routinely fly with is a J owner, an ATP and has over 5,000 hours in Mooneys. A few years ago he was the one who alerted me to a rigging problem when we were doing stalls. I thought I was just being sloppy. Experience does matter. Especially when MY life is involved.

 

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, cliffy said:

The commercial ride was also in my Cessna 140!!!  IIRC it spun somewhat tighter than a 150. I did 2 turns and a recovery each way a couple of times for him.  Took a while to climb back up each time (400-500 FPM)

Actually it was Octave :-)   Bet you can't guess the last name!  

My last BFR (or what ever they call it today)  I rented a 172 just for S&^%s and Grins. Presented a new dynamic that made me really think and accommodate to the new dynamic in performance that I wasn't used to. It was a challenge. He also makes me do the FAA on line test for the BFR before I get there. Counts as the ground school portion. Actually a good review every time. 

Wouldn't be Octave Chanute would it?

[Marauder]

Just now, Marauder said:

Wouldn't be Octave Chanute would it?

If so, we should move on from using a sun dial to gauge your age and move directly to carbon dating. 

 

[carusoam]

That Chanute guy was a pretty accomplished fellow...
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_Chanute
 

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

On 6/29/2020 at 8:31 AM, donkaye said:

My recommendation: Don't do cross controlled stalls in a Mooney.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Inadvertent_Spins_in_a_Mooney.html

I generally agree with this... I didn’t go quite as far as you, but I did purposely climb to high altitude and set up a power on stall without coordination.  Just left my feet flat on the floor to see how bad it might be if I really messed up during a go around or missed approach.  At the time I was an Air Force Pilot Training examiner in the T-6.  I was very comfortable with unusual attitudes.  When the Mooney stalled, there was plenty of warning, but when forced, it did just like Don said, left wing dropped to vertical and the nose quickly followed.  I quickly released back pressure and it didn’t spin, but getting the power out and recovering before being deep in the yellow was challenging.  
 

I think Mooneys give plenty of warning before stalling, so it’s probably enough to train coordinated stalls and just discuss the spin entry scenario because it drops the nose and builds up speed real quick.

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I generally agree with this... I didn’t go quite as far as you, but I did purposely climb to high altitude and set up a power on stall without coordination.  Just left my feet flat on the floor to see how bad it might be if I really messed up during a go around or missed approach.  At the time I was an Air Force Pilot Training examiner in the T-6.  I was very comfortable with unusual attitudes.  When the Mooney stalled, there was plenty of warning, but when forced, it did just like Don said, left wing dropped to vertical and the nose quickly followed.  I quickly released back pressure and it didn’t spin, but getting the power out and recovering before being deep in the yellow was challenging.  
 

I think Mooneys give plenty of warning before stalling, so it’s probably enough to train coordinated stalls and just discuss the spin entry scenario because it drops the nose and builds up speed real quick.

I took mine to a similar place during a flight review. Gear down full flaps and partial power. At the break the Left wing rolled off abruptly to about 115°, as I recall I had the the power off and and anti spin inputs as the nose dropped to near vertical. We had plenty of altitude so I was gentle with recovering to level flight. We ended up about 160° off of our initial entry heading and ~1000ft of altitude lost.

[jlunseth]

During the first turn in a spin, a better strategy than PARE is PUSH ROLL POWER STABILIZE.   The PUSH should be automatic.

The first turn is an incipient spin. Although the aircraft is beginning to spin, the spin forces have not fully developed and you can break out without PARE. Wait more than one turn and PARE is the only way to go.