Convince me I need to replace my KLN 94 with a G430W

[mooneyflyfast]

I have an 81 J model with a KLN 94, Garmin SL 40, and KNS 80. I bought a G430W to replace these but am now having second thoughts about it. I am turned off by the installation cost (3,200 to 3,800) and the hassle factor (getting the 430 installed and disposing of my 94 and SL40). Also my existing equipment works well and I know how to use it. Looks like a steep learning curve with the 430. AFSIK the advantages of the WASS GPS are lower minimums for some RNAV approaches, pseudo GS on RNAV approaches, possibility of GPSS (which I won't have) and possible use for ADSB out which I also won't have.

[Cruiser]

If you are happy, I am happy.

Stick with the avionics you have.

[carusoam]

If you need WAAS...

You need to do something.

If you want WAAS...

You want to do the same thing.

There are three companies producing WAAS nav/coms.

There are many used G (w) devices hitting the market.

Installing a ten year old technology is going to be as expensive as installing a new GTN...

This logic is keeping a KLN90B in my panel for a while.

If you don't know if a WAAS approach is good for you. Wait some...

If your home drome has a WAAS approach and it's the only precision approach. Now is a good time...

If you don't fly IFR, work on that first. Then decide...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

You're planning to stop flying in 4.5 years when ADS-B out is required?

If not I suggest installing the 430W now, and have the installer run a serial cable from the 430 back to the equipment rack where you're likely to place the ADS-B box.

[midlifeflyer]

I think you have a handle on most of the differences. You can add usability for the new RNAV SIDs and STARs to the list.  I personally wouldn't discount the value of the real glideslope and lower minimums for GPS LPV approaches or usability as an ADS-B out location source (especially since ADS-B out is required in a few years anyway).

 

Can't comment on the steepness of the learning curve since that's very much in the eye of the beholder (learner). I've seen people transition from one to the other fairly quickly and others who needed a lot of work (with no apparent correlation to naive intelligence, flying experience, or their ease of learning other kinds of things).

[mooneyflyfast]

I'm thinking that soon (now?) ADSB out boxes are going to be available with built in WAAS for not too much more money. Committing to the 430 as the ADSB position source now is going to limit the choice of ADSB boxes to those that are compatible with it.

[mooneyflyfast]

Are there SIDS and STARS that require WAAS?

[carqwik]

I have a KLN-94 in my plane...and that's the most modern piece of avionics in it!  The only drawback (as I see it) to the -94 is the small screen and lack of WAAS capability...but LPV approaches aren't too much of a concern out here in the inter-mountain west.  If I was going to upgrade, then it would be a box with a much bigger screen and WAAS but the L-3 integrated xpdr with WAAS/ADS-B may be the lowest cost (and easiest) ticket.

[Marauder]

I'm thinking that soon (now?) ADSB out boxes are going to be available with built in WAAS for not too much more money. Committing to the 430 as the ADSB position source now is going to limit the choice of ADSB boxes to those that are compatible with it.

I think you are approaching (pun intended) this correctly. If you need to be able to fly WAAS approaches, then the 430W or 750/650 is where you need to head.

In my case, I was strictly VOR/ILS capable until 2012. A couple of my favorite destinations were starting to get rid of their VOR approaches and replacing them with LNAV and LPVs.

I agree with you that more and more ways of ADS-B compliance will be coming out with integrated WAAS.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cliffy]

In reality, your 94 can do eveything the 430 can do except the lower approaches.

How many low approaches in GPS would you really do?

What are your personal limitations on weather flying?

Yes the G/S in a WAAS approach is nice but I have found that I personally don't need it

that often (if ever) in my type of flying, it really doesn't impact me that much, so I'm sticking

with my 155 TSO ist generation GPS for a while yet to see how the ADSB stuff filters out.

[kevinw]

You'll never completely justify the upgrade weighing cost versus use and added capability but you'll enjoy using it and won't regret it. If you have the box and all you're really talking about is the install, I'd do it. It stings; trust me, I know.

[PTK]

Personally I wouldn't, under any circumstance, spend good money to install old technology that assumes the front and center driving force in my panel. Not even if I got the unit for free! Think about it. You are paying for the priviledge to be at an immediate disadvantage. The gns is a dead end and not forward looking technology. There will come a time when G will stop supporting the GNS.

If you absolutely need to fly WAAS right now I would install a gtn. If not just wait till you can.

I don't know what you paid for your 430W but you should be able to trade it for a gtn650 for under 6k installed.

[Mooneymite]

The fact that you're asking the question probably means you don't need the up-grade.  It will be time when you "unquestionably" need it. 

 

I heartily agree with those who encourage you not to "up-grade" to the old 430W.  Sell it today while it has good value and put the money toward an eventual up-grade that will be the latest and greatest when you buy it.

 

It is amazing how fast avionics becomes out-dated and un-supported....then you're forced to buy something else and your old avionics have virtually no trade value.

[Bob - S50]

I would not install a GNS 430.  If you want WAAS/LPV approaches, get one of the newer boxes; Garmin GTN 650/750, King KSN 770, or Avidyne IFD 440/540.

 

As others have said, why spend money on old technology that will become unsupported sooner.  I think Garmin has finished ordering replacement parts for the 430/530.  When the parts are used up, they will no longer repair broken units.

 

If you don't care about WAAS/LPV, and you are happy with what you have, save the money.

 

Bob

[Bravoman]

Hard to believe garmin will stop supporting the gns series anytime soon. Too many of them in use and it is tough to imagine that those at the helm at garmin would be so short sighted as it would undermine overall confidence in the companys products. I have both the 430w in my Saratoga and a 650 in the mooney and still think the 430 is the best overall general aviation box ever made. I think they will still be supported 20 years from now.

[Alan Fox]

The G430 has over 10,000 units in service , Garmin has no intent to stop providing support for these , that being said , when Garmin stopped support for the MX20 , they gave a 4000 dollar trade allowance for a new GMX200 , if you push , they will give a 2500 dollar trade for an MX20 against a GMX200....  They did stop support for the GX series, but I don't think they had the number of units out in the fleet , also the GX series was an Apollo product that predates the Garmin name....As far as a  GTN upgrade   you are looking at a 5000 upgrade over the 430 , GTN = 10,500  G430W = 5500 .....  The 94 is a good legacy unit , the two problems being 1) screens are no longer available, 2) No rs232 output for GPSS ......The 94 is worth about 1500 on the open market , The SL40 about 1100 , I would sit on the 94 and wait for an all in one box for ADSB out.....There will be a 3000.00 all in one box within the next two years..... Trig , and Appareo are in the loop to be certified.....  Everybody talks about the 650 being such great tech , the only thing it does that the 430 does not , is touch screen.........P.S.  the screen on the 94 will last forever as long as nobody tries to use it like a touch screen......When they push on the screen , that's what kills em.... 

[PTK]

...Everybody talks about the 650 being such great tech , the only thing it does that the 430 does not , is touch screen.

Wow! Really?!

Clearly Alan has no clue! Disregard his advice!

Alan here's extra credit homework for you:

write a compare/contrast essay on GNS and GTN. Four pages, double spaced.

[Marauder]

Hey, Alan is cheating! He is copying my answers!

Why I want a GTN for Christmas

By: Marauder

I want a GTN for Christmas because it can do so many more things than that old GNS. It can display airways! I love airways. I would never get lost with my trusty GTN always showing me which airway to fly. The GTN can also control my trusty Garmin 327 transponder. No longer would I need reach way way way across my panel to get to the buttons on it. The GTN would also give me prettier pictures because it has a higher resolution screen and a much bigger display. The GTN also has a much better GUI. No more ENT ENT while standing on the left rudder! So, in closing. I want a GTN because it is new and has a pretty box that it comes in. And I don't mind giving the gorilla all of my money.

Oh, you wanted it double spaced.

Why I want a GTN for Christmas

By: Marauder

I want a GTN for Christmas because it can do so many more things than that old GNS.

It can display airways! I love airways. I would never get lost with my trusty GTN always showing me which airway to fly.

The GTN can also control my trusty Garmin 327 transponder. No longer would I need reach way way way across my panel to get to the buttons on it.

The GTN would also give me prettier pictures because it has a higher resolution screen and a much bigger display.

The GTN also has a much better GUI. No more ENT ENT while standing on the left rudder!

So, in closing. I want a GTN because it is new and has a pretty box that it comes in. And I don't mind giving the gorilla all of my money.

Sincerely,

Marauder

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

Hey, Alan is cheating! He is copying my answers!

Why I want a GTN for Christmas

By: Marauder

I want a GTN for Christmas because it can do so many more things than that old GNS. It can display airways! I love airways. I would never get lost with my trusty GTN always showing me which airway to fly. The GTN can also control my trusty Garmin 327 transponder. No longer would I need reach way way way across my panel to get to the buttons on it. The GTN would also give me prettier pictures because it has a higher resolution screen and a much bigger display. The GTN also has a much better GUI. No more ENT ENT while standing on the left rudder! So, in closing. I want a GTN because it is new and has a pretty box that it comes in. And I don't mind giving the gorilla all of my money.

Oh, you wanted it double spaced.

Why I want a GTN for Christmas

By: Marauder

I want a GTN for Christmas because it can do so many more things than that old GNS.

It can display airways! I love airways. I would never get lost with my trusty GTN always showing me which airway to fly.

The GTN can also control my trusty Garmin 327 transponder. No longer would I need reach way way way across my panel to get to the buttons on it.

The GTN would also give me prettier pictures because it has a higher resolution screen and a much bigger display.

The GTN also has a much better GUI. No more ENT ENT while standing on the left rudder!

So, in closing. I want a GTN because it is new and has a pretty box that it comes in. And I don't mind giving the gorilla all of my money.

Sincerely,

Marauder

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I Sure cant make the GTN 650 control the GTX327 in a J I take care of. Oh, you did forget the great fun it is to put it in OBS mode while being banged around in thermals on a June day in Fl.  

[PTK]

The GTN 750 can control a remote audio panel (GMA35) and remote tx (GTX33.) I have this setup and I love it. Cleans up valuable panel real estate.

The 650 will only control remote tx. Not audio panel.

[Alan Fox]

So , just curious what procedures and approaches does the GTN do that the GNS does not?? And also . if you cant figure out which airway you are on , you might want to stay home.......

[mike_elliott]

The GTN 750 can control a remote audio panel (GMA35) and remote tx (GTX33.) I have this setup and I love it. Cleans up valuable panel real estate.

The 650 will only control remote tx. Not audio panel.

Sure leads to interesting scenarios when the 750 pops, (like 121.5, 7600 etc). Have your favorite CFI take you up and fail this stuff, go thru  your emergency procedures so you have a handle on how to switch frequencies, squak 7600 etc. 

[PTK]

That's your assigned homework Alan!

Do your research and write the essay.

Be sure to include references.

[PTK]

Mike, the failure mode of this setup is this:

Tx switches to lost comm radio 7600, and audio panel defaults to comm1 on 121.5.

If comm1 internal to gtn has also failed the audio panel knows this and defaults to comm2.

Pretty sophisticated failure sequence as it should be!

[midlifeflyer]

So , just curious what procedures and approaches does the GTN do that the GNS does not?? And also . if you cant figure out which airway you are on , you might want to stay home.......

None in terms of published procedures and approaches.

 

But knowing airways is not about "figuring out which airway you are on." It's about hearing "Direct Briggs, V8 ATWOO, V103 Roanoke, V258..." in your clearance out of Cleveland and instead of search through your chart to figure out where the heck all the change-over points are and then entering all 5 individually into the 430, entering ATWOO in the GNS and telling it you'll be following V103 until the Roanoke exit point (only about 200 NM).

 

That's a short flight - only about 200 NM on the airway with 5 COPs - a saving of 3 entries (not to mention looking for them). Try it on a longer flight (and better yet, let's make that an in-flight amendment to your clearance), in an area you are not familiar with, and the value of airway knowledge by a unit becomes a pretty decent time and aggravation saver.

 

That assumes, of course, that saving time and aggravation has value to the pilot.