Stupid stuff ; landing , starting?

[UngaWunga]

Looks like you could very easily tighten up your pattern some, then you could keep the speeds low, not have to add power on final, and still be within glide distance of the runway.

[carl]

Woohooo 

 I flew today after work, 6pm,Calm , beautiful overcast . Did a little slow flight then did a  left pattern at super slow speeds. 85 downwind , and base to final , slow to 80 on final . Over the fence under 80 and touch down some where slower that that , 79, 70 ,60? I was just holding it off.  No bounce pretty comfortable . Do it Again.

 Pattern 85 gear flap 3 pumps hands off trim , wing is on runway,( mountain on right) base to final 80 MPH . final slow less that 80 ,... 75over the fence .hold it off a bit , stall warning sounds and it is on the ground.  This is my first landing hearing the stall warning .  Wonderfull feel.

 

I will work on more slow flight. 

As an aside, the fatal turn I spoke of , happened at the same place this plane came from ,Carson Valley ,NV. Amazingly, there, you can land straignt ahead just about anywhere and only get some brush rash. Which at to why I like it fast and slow turns downlow . 

But I must learn the envelope fully. 

[Shadrach]

  On 4/15/2015 at 12:48 AM, UngaWunga said:

Looks like you could very easily tighten up your pattern some, then you could keep the speeds low, not have to add power on final, and still be within glide distance of the runway.

Pretty sure Hank was on a straight in approach.  Without knowing the wind direction and speed, it might be a bit padantic to critique a squirt of throttle on final. 

[M20F]

Many others have included this in their posts but the real key to landing a Mooney is hold it off till it wants to land. If you screw up and come in at 165kts and have 15000 feet of runway just holding it off will result in a decent landing. When in doubt just go around it is a lot less embarssing than crashing :-)

[Hank]

No, I flew a normal pattern, my wife didn't start filming until during the base to final turn. Added power back because I reduced it too much too soon. Often the numbers are hidden by the trees until close, this time I could see them so pulled extra throttle. It's hard to tell here but pattern spacing is 1/2 mile.

[Shadrach]

  On 4/15/2015 at 1:00 AM, carl said:

Woohooo 

This is my first landing hearing the stall warning .  Wonderfull feel.

But I must learn the envelope fully. 

 

Well done Carl! Take it slow (pun intended)! 

[Shadrach]

  On 4/15/2015 at 1:16 AM, M20F said:

Many others have included this in their posts but the real key to landing a Mooney is hold it off till it wants to land. If you screw up and come in at 165kts and have 15000 feet of runway just holding it off will result in a decent landing. When in doubt just go around it is a lot less embarssing than crashing :-)

 

 

I bet one could float 15,000 if they started at 165!!!

[Shadrach]

  On 4/15/2015 at 1:22 AM, Hank said:

No, I flew a normal pattern, my wife didn't start filming until during the base to final turn. Added power back because I reduced it too much too soon. Often the numbers are hidden by the trees until close, this time I could see them so pulled extra throttle. It's hard to tell here but pattern spacing is 1/2 mile.

 

If I were a lawyer, I'd never put you on the stand...

[Hank]

Did I mention Takeoff flaps?

[Wesley brown]

I too have 160 hours total time and about 60 in a grumman traveler which I loved. I just transitioned into a mooney M20c. I was lucky and my friend has owned mooneys and he is a CFI and trained me.

Here is what I do

Decent, figure your decent way out and make very slight changes to your MP one in he every minute so you won't shock cool your engine.

Be at pattern altitude 15 miles out if you can safely and start to throttle back slowly and while doing so at the same time slightly increase your nose pith up with your trim will. This will decrease your speed even while under slight throttle settings. Once you hit 120 I usually keep it there a until downwind and then I'll lower the gear . I don't select a point I just do what feels best for the plane and myself. Sometimes down wind or base and even final.

Once the gear is down use your throttle to carry level flight or decent I'm usually 500' min with slight throttle and gear down

I'll continue to reduce power and pith the nose up with the trim wheel until I can deploy one notch flaps pitch up slightly more an doña other notch of flaps. REMEMBER. When you deploy the flaps immediately pull up on the yoke to keep the nose up and your speed constant. These planes have a bad habit up gaining speed and dropping the nose when each flap setting is deployed.

On final I shoot for 80 mph or 83 until over the numbers if there is no headwind I cut the throttle or adjust accordingly to control speed and decent.

I never land if I'm over 80 mph

Remember trim for speed, throttle for decent and if all else fails make sure the gear is DOWN

quote name="carl" post="206601" timestamp="1428879175"]Hello,

 This is stupid, and I am the first to admit it.

 

 Stupid #1

 I have a hard time landing, there I said it . After flying at 170 mph , I am supposed to slow down to 90 mph

downwind, 85 base , and final. then I float before I bounce and go around , and then I do it again and land.

I use full flaps( both times).

 

I know I need practice, but I am approaching 14 hours in the mooney M20E, I must be doing something wrong.

 

What MPH numbers do you use for downwind , base, final, 

Are you changing the throttle as you go through these stages or  do you use a constant throttle setting.

 

Stupid# 2 

As a sight reference;

At a 1000 feet pattern altitude , left downwind, where do you put your left wingtip?I put mine on the runway, is that the right place? 

 

Stupid #3

Starting cold, I got down well, but today after flying 45 minutes, landing, going to lunch, coming back an hour later, I had a bear of a time starting. I guess I flooded it. 

What is your choice for hot starts and flooded methods, there are a bunch ?

I though it would be a cold start after an hour, but maybe it wasn't . 68 degrees , sitting in the sun on the ramp( and Summer is coming) When do you decide to use a hot start vs a cold?

I have the E which is fuel injected . 

 

Just to be clear,I am a licensed pilot with about 160 hours in a Grumman AA-5 Traveler, a very different plane, but I could start and land that plane.

 

My next flight will be pattern work and flying the pattern  by the numbers . I am just looking for some reference points. 

 

Thanks 

 

carl

[Shadrach]

  On 4/16/2015 at 3:29 AM, Wesley brown said:

I too have 160 hours total time and about 60 in a grumman traveler which I loved. I just transitioned into a mooney M20c. I was lucky and my friend has owned mooneys and he is a CFI and trained me.

Here is what I do

Decent, figure your decent way out and make very slight changes to your MP one in he every minute so you won't shock cool your engine.

Be at pattern altitude 15 miles out if you can safely and start to throttle back slowly and while doing so at the same time slightly increase your nose pith up with your trim will. This will decrease your speed even while under slight throttle settings. Once you hit 120 I usually keep it there a until downwind and then I'll lower the gear . I don't select a point I just do what feels best for the plane and myself. Sometimes down wind or base and even final.

Once the gear is down use your throttle to carry level flight or decent I'm usually 500' min with slight throttle and gear down

I'll continue to reduce power and pith the nose up with the trim wheel until I can deploy one notch flaps pitch up slightly more an doña other notch of flaps. REMEMBER. When you deploy the flaps immediately pull up on the yoke to keep the nose up and your speed constant. These planes have a bad habit up gaining speed and dropping the nose when each flap setting is deployed.

On final I shoot for 80 mph or 83 until over the numbers if there is no headwind I cut the throttle or adjust accordingly to control speed and decent.

I never land if I'm over 80 mph

Remember trim for speed, throttle for decent and if all else fails make sure the gear is DOWN

 

 

Wesley,

 

I would suggest that you try and challenge your SOP a bit. TPA fifteen miles out is a pretty extreme measure to stay in front of a little old Mooney.  You'll never be able to successfully shoot an IFR approach into anything other than quiet GA airports.  Class Charlie/Bravo controllers are going to be less than pleased if you're bumping down the ILS @ 100MPH (and so is everyone behind you).

 

As for the flaps, these planes don't have any "habits"; when the flaps are deployed, the effective cord of the wing changes. Changes to the cord result in changes to the Angle of Incidence. This makes it seem like the nose is dropping, but the reality is the airfoil has changed so the nose is at a lower angle to the relative wind.  Instead of muscling it with the yoke, just reach down and give the trim wheel a turn or two. Flaps allow for steeper descents at lower speeds with better visibility over the nose.  Flaps are your friend, not your enemy.

 

Shock cooling (or the myth of) has been discussed ad nauseum. I will simply say that if you don't let your engine get hot, then how can it be shock cooled?  Perhaps there's some merit to the theory for high strung turbos at 25,000 feet, but I have my doubts.  I've done a number of "Stuka" approaches (some at ATCs request) in my bird with no evidence of damage from shock cooling.

 

80-83 "over the numbers" is way too fast in an A model unless you're no flaps, near gross in a heavy cross wind.

 

Go out and try to spot land your plane. It's great practice for getting comfortable with flying approaches at the appropriate speeds. 

[DXB]

"Shock cooling (or the myth of) has been discussed ad nauseum. I will simply say that if you don't let your engine get hot, then how can it be shock cooled?  Perhaps there's some merit to the theory for high strung turbos at 25,000 feet, but I have my doubts.  I've done a number of "Stuka" approaches (some at ATCs request) in my bird with no evidence of damage from shock cooling"

 

I wonder about this issue too.  I think I heard Mike Busch say somewhere that as long as CHTs stay above 250, then definitely it's no big deal?   I honestly haven't watched to see how low it goes in a steeper descent with low power.   

[Bob_Belville]

I doubt that shock cooling of your "bulletproof" O-360 would make the top 20 list of things to worry about. It's right up there with in-flight failure of a Mooney wing spar.

[Hank]

Make power on descents, push the yoke for 500fpm and trim the force out. As you descend, every couple of thousand feet, pull the throttle back to your cruise setting and push the mixture in to put EGT back to its cruise value. Allow yourself 3-4 nm to slow to pattern speed.

Develop a standard spot to drop gear and first flaps. I use gear to start descending on downwind, but I crank flaps in first (my flap speed is 125 mph, which won't work for you). Maintain glideslope with throttle and airspeed with the yoke. Keep it trimmed all the time. I aim for 70 mph at the boundary when light (2 people, half tanks), and stall horn just before touchdown.

Good luck and have fun.

[BigTex]

When I went through my transition training, my instructor said that when you're ready to descend, just push the nose over, trim it and reap the rewards of a high performance aircraft.  As long as you're below Vne, in smooth air and your passengers aren't green, enjoy the ride.

[Wesley brown]

  On 4/16/2015 at 4:01 PM, Shadrach said:

Wesley,

 

I would suggest that you try and challenge your SOP a bit. TPA fifteen miles out is a pretty extreme measure to stay in front of a little old Mooney.  You'll never be able to successfully shoot an IFR approach into anything other than quiet GA airports.  Class Charlie/Bravo controllers are going to be less than pleased if you're bumping down the ILS @ 100MPH (and so is everyone behind you).

 

As for the flaps, these planes don't have any "habits"; when the flaps are deployed, the effective cord of the wing changes. Changes to the cord result in changes to the Angle of Incidence. This makes it seem like the nose is dropping, but the reality is the airfoil has changed so the nose is at a lower angle to the relative wind.  Instead of muscling it with the yoke, just reach down and give the trim wheel a turn or two. Flaps allow for steeper descents at lower speeds with better visibility over the nose.  Flaps are your friend, not your enemy.

 

Shock cooling (or the myth of) has been discussed ad nauseum. I will simply say that if you don't let your engine get hot, then how can it be shock cooled?  Perhaps there's some merit to the theory for high strung turbos at 25,000 feet, but I have my doubts.  I've done a number of "Stuka" approaches (some at ATCs request) in my bird with no evidence of damage from shock cooling.

 

80-83 "over the numbers" is way too fast in an A model unless you're no flaps, near gross in a heavy cross wind.

 

Go out and try to spot land your plane. It's great practice for getting comfortable with flying approaches at the appropriate speeds.

I knew that I would have a critic and find the expert.

[gsxrpilot]

Carl,

 

The secret to landing ANY aircraft smoothly is to hold it OFF the runway until it's done flying.  You've got 5000 ft to work with at your home field, you should be able to fly the approach at 100 and still land safely within 5000 ft. Of course, knowing how to get your Mooney down and stopped in <1500 ft is a valuable skill especially if you have to put it down off airport someday. I fly a C in formation with the Mooney Caravan. Of course we only land in formation on long runways, but our standard operating procedure is to fly the approach at 90KIAS which is 103 mph and we don't back off until over the numbers. These are of course no flap landings. You can see 35 of us landing 3 abreast in a gusting cross wind at OSH last year in this video. There was no bouncing and no go arounds. Everyone stuck the landing.

 

https://youtu.be/LDM7JMcXFOs

 

Obviously slow flight practice and hitting speeds on approach are very valuable and so please practice as has been recommended by everyone until you can get down and slow consistently. But if you've got the runway to work with, rounding out over the numbers at 100 mph isn't a problem. Just hold it off until it's done flying and let it roll on. If you try to force it on to the runway before it's done flying, you'll likely be buying an engine and prop.

[Shadrach]

  On 4/17/2015 at 1:57 AM, Wesley brown said:

I knew that I would have a critic and find the expert.

Terribly sorry if I offended you, please do carry on doing what you're doing. However, if you're going to make suggestions to others on a public form, be man enough to take well intentioned criticism without getting your panties in a wad. Also, while Texas (I lived on the outskirts of SA for many years) is a big and relatively flat place, there are many places in the country where terrain would make it physically impossible to operate the way you've suggested

[Wesley brown]

  On 4/17/2015 at 4:04 AM, Shadrach said:

Terribly sorry if I offended you, please do carry on doing what you're doing. However, if you're going to make suggestions to others on a public form, be man enough to take well intentioned criticism without getting your panties in a wad. Also, while Texas (I lived on the outskirts of SA for many years) is a big and relatively flat place, there are many places in the country where terrain would make it physically impossible to operate the way you've suggested

Forgive me if I did not relay what I was trying to say perfectly. I understand that my suggestion may not fit every situation . And might I say that I was only relaying what worked for me seeing that I transitioned from a slow traveler and the greatest challenge was for me to plan ahead to slow down!

As for me going to fast 80-83: we always have total cross wind sometimes it changes to a tail wind mid way. I can land 75 but it won't be a greaser. I've never had any problems landing at our 3000' runway.

As for class C or B: I'm not in those areas nor would I suggest that a new mooney pilot be in those circumstances until he's very comfortable descending / landing their plane.

Flaps: never said they were your enemy! They are quite different from the traveler! I was only relaying what I sensed from transitioning from the two.

Shock cooling: I like my engine, break in procedure suggest you baby your engine! Should this change regardless of engine time? I choose to not make harsh throttle changes and drop in elevation with no throttle. Turbos non turbos it just makes sense. If I go out and treat my car harshly something will give! This I know because I spend much more time working on engines than talking about relative wind on a forum.

[mike20papa]

This discussin' sounds like FUN.  So here's my VFR SOP.  Cruise altitude WOT & 2400.  Running lean as it will run smooth.  Figure what altitude needs to be lost to get me to pattern & divide by 500 then that many minuts out reduce power to get 500ft/min descent and stay out of the yellow arc.  (Flying in TX can get bumpy coming thru/below the lifting condensate level) So, I usually use 16" MP.  Around 1000ft above pattern I switch from aft to my most trusted main tank, aux. fuel pump on, finalize my pattern entry decision, radio calls, etc.  Then I really focus on flighing a precision pattern entry, on the money altitude and at 120mph and my standard distance out from runway.  On downwind - trim, trim.trim & more trim & power reduced usually now down to 12" and mixture richened, I look to hit 100mph abeam the numbers - still at pattern alt. , the gear goes down, quick check list, then turn constant rate descending base & final.  On final I may use flaps, I may not, mixture rich, prop full last gear check.  I do like the slower landing speed on roll out with flaps, but either way, I use power or a forward slip to deal with alt. adjustments, never flaps.  If there is a stiff xwind I'll extend down wind to get a longer final - to be sure I have enough control authority to handle the wind that with full X controls I can track runway center line and know my fwd slip is going to be adequate - even in the flair.  adjust power to stay at 90 mph - what I like to come down final at. then over the numbers pull power & work out the landing.  To me, the key to landing the Mooney is trim.  If you don't have almost all of the up trim rolled in before you land, the yoke force goes way up and it looses its sweet personality. 

[Wesley brown]

I couldn't have explained it better! Trim, trim, trim, trim,

[Hank]

Often when leaving the plane, I notice that the trim is almost at the Takeoff position.

[Guitarmaster]

Just an idea. Go do some stalls with different flap configurations. Make note of the airspeed at which it breaks. Multiply that speed by 1.2 and that should be a good, no wind across the fence speed. Adjust your approach speed by adding a gust factor to the 1.2.

With just me and about 40 gallons of fuel I approach at 80 miles an hour and cross the fence at about 65 with take off flaps set.

[carl]

Wait , question on trim, Hank? 

When I landed last I was over the fence slow and trimmed with full flap in , 5 pumps. I touched down just as the stall horn sounded.

 

I did not touch my trim after , back at the hanger I looked at the elevator , it was trimmed super tail down , nose high , as I expected.

 

 

This is way off from my takeoff trim position, since I'm trimmed right above a stall . 

 

carl

[DXB]

I was thinking the same- I've been working to get the trim right on final with full flaps, and it is always significantly nose up relative to takeoff position.   For go-around, I would expect to need to push the nose down until I have a chance to retrim.