My Panel Make Over

[KLRDMD]

Quote: DaV8or

If I have to do the HSI and I hope I don't, it will have to be used and even then I might have to go un-slaved. The Aspen is really nice, but the price tag and the fact that it still needs a back up AI makes it a no go for me. The only reason I would do an HSI is to free up panel space and the because of the back up AI, the Aspen doesn't really do that.

[DaV8or]

Quote: KLRDMD

Even used, HSIs aren't cheap and then there's no guarantee they'll not require more $$$ in maintenance fairly soon after installation. Two shops I called refused to even put a used HSI in for the above reasons.

[DaV8or]

So it looks like my EDM 700 won't be able to fit on the far left side. In addition, I discovered just how crappy the factory amp meter is by using my own clamp on amp meter and checking loads. Turns out, the factory gauge won't really do any thing unless there is a big load on it. This got me wondering about the health of the other five gauges in the cluster and how useful they are. I have also decided that I want to get a digital amp/volt meter.

This all leads to new options for my panel and of course none of them are cheaper. So, from cheapest to most expensive:

1) Leave the 700 where it is and ditch the Hobbs to make room. Add a second CDI, get the factory gauges overhauled and try to cram an amp meter in somewhere. Pros: Cheapest option and easiest to do. Cons: Engine monitor is hard to read and as far away from the pilot as possible. Still uses sketchy, wobbly and inaccurate engine gauges. May not be room for an amp meter. Hardware costs- about $2600

2) Same as above, but replace the original engine gauges with new ones by Sigma-Tek. Pros: Still affordable and has new appearence and perhaps more reliable gauges. Cons: Same as above. Hardware costs- about $4100

3) Add a used Century unslaved HSI and move the 700 just under Nav 2 CDI. Ditch the Hobbs and add an amp meter. Have the factory engine gauges overhauled. Pros: HSI is nice for instrument scan. Gets the 700 in pilot's view. Everything fits. Cons: Used HSI with questionable reliability. Possibly added time and expense to move the 700 across the panel. Still uses crappy factory engine gauges. Hardware costs- about $4400

4) Same as above, but install new Sigma-Tek engines gauges. Pros: New, better engine gauges. Cons: More money. Hardware costs- about $5900

5) Add a second CDI. Ditch the factory engine gauges, EDM 700 and hobbs meter. Add an EDM 930. Pros: Accurate digital monitoring of every engine function including tach. Clean new look. Everything fits. Maybe can sell my EDM 700 and get a little money back. Cons: Engine monitoring is still far away from pilot's view. Highest cost. Will have the highest labor cost. Puts all engine monitoring into one failure point. Hardware costs- about $6800

What do you guys think? Ideas?

[Immelman]

Dave, I have an EI digital volt/ammeter that is a relatively low-cost way to tackle that problem. I do not see the need for a hobbs meter in an airplane used for personal use if your recording tach is reasonably accurate as well.

On the rest of the engine gauges, I see where you are coming from, but I am also a believer on maintenance on-condition. There is a place (Kelly instruments) in the midwest that LASAR recommended to me when one of my fuel gauges went haywire. $130 and a week later it was overhauled --> no big deal. The way I see it the garwin '6 pack' is useful for oil pressure and temperature, with the rest being there for your personal amusement, assuming that you have fuel flow with your engine monitor.Then fix the garwin cluster gauges as-needed, if they really go TU on you.

I, however, am approaching it from a cost standpoint. An EDM930 certainly would be pretty but how much extra data will it give you versus the 700 (with extra probes) and how much resale increase do you get?

 

[DaV8or]

I'm still scheming on my new panel. I would like to try to get an EI MVP-50 to replace all my factory engine guages and then some. Problem is where to put it. Below are the only two options that I can do and still get the 696 in there. Option 1 puts the engine functions close in view, but puts Nav 2, transponder and audio panel far away. Option 2 keeps naviation and communication close at hand, but engine functions far away. Any thoughts, suggestions?

[flight2000]

Dave, the only concern with Option 2 is the depth of the MVP.  I can't find the dimensions for the "box" online so I'm not sure if it would fit.  I know the EMD-7XX/8XX won't fit in the slots that close to the airframe because of the way the fuselage starts curving towards the engine.  Actually, might be the same concern for the radio stack going in there as well. 

The EMD-830 is supposed to be TSO'd as a primary replacement for all of the engine gauges, including RPM/Manifold Pressure.  I'm still struggling with this same decision, so I feel your pain.  

Brian

[Gone]

Interesting discussion. 

I too am looking at ways to enhance panel real estate and get more reliable instrumentation for IFR flying.

The MVP 50 was discussed at some length in this thread:  http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=2&threadid=1603.

I went to their website and one of their downloads has the dimensions of the instrument.  It is 5.55" wide and 5.15" tall.  It is 2.4" deep - so somewhat more attractive than the 930 from JPI.

They have our aircraft listed at entry number 48 on their STC list.

Looking better and better.  Now, if I only had the requisite AMUs........

[tony]

Dave, just another thing I would check.....Will the display support that large a viewing angle mounted that far over from the pilot's eye? 

[DaV8or]

Quote: tony

Dave, just another thing I would check.....Will the display support that large a viewing angle mounted that far over from the pilot's eye? 

[Parker_Woodruff]

You're gonna have a sweet M20F.

[scottfromiowa]

I like the first option Dave.  The engine parameters are important and closer for your scan.  The transponder once set is only an occasional operation that is still within reach...same with Com2 and Com Panel.  I really like this idea.  Can't wait to see photos complete and hear how you like flying behind it.  I love the size of the Garmin too, but my 496 will be serving me for the forseeable future.  Have fun!

[Ron McBride]

Dave  I have my 496 on the right and angeled for me. I wish it was in the center stack or on the pilot side. Since you are going to redo the Pilot side also, can you get the 696 on the pilot side panel??    I know, more choices again.

Check out my pictures at N9154v and you will see my panel. 

Looking forward to completion pictures.

Ron

 

[MARZ]

Quote: danb35

When I did mine on the pilot's side, my mechanic and I agreed that replacing that panel was a minor alteration, and would only need a logbook entry as documentation.  The panel itself was an owner-produced part--I had it CNC cut from a CAD file I provided.

[N601RX]

Here is a before and after of my panel.  You can get a 2X2 piece of aluminum from Spruce for about $25 and it will make 2 panels.  It uses the same mounts as the original so it is just a bolt in replacement.  It may not be a 201 panel, but for the price difference I'm happy with it.  I plan to do something similiar for the right side.  I used Nulites for lighting.  They work very well.

Yes, I know the old DG has to go!

[DaV8or]

Any pictures with the panel out? Curious what the limitations are behind there.

[N601RX]

I have one, but it doesn't show very much, because the instruments are still laying in there.  The only real clearance problem is around the yoke shaft and there is a depth problem in the bottom left corner.  I believe if the top of the panel was leaned out a little bit it would help with the depth problem in the bottom left corner.

[flight2000]

Quote: DaV8or

Any pictures with the panel out? Curious what the limitations are behind there.

[scottfromiowa]

Dave:

Your posts have really got me thinking (regarding my right side panel).  Thank you.  I am thinking 696.  vertical RPM/Manifold pressure to immediate right.  EI volt (already have) top right.  EI fuel flow (already have) below that.  Remove my garwin Oil pressure/temp and install EI unit. (all certified as primary).  I have Cylinder temp with GEM (upgrading to G3 for certified primary on exhaust and cylinder temps) so no need for the Garwin gauge there.  Overhaul Garwin Fuel gauges at Kelly and mount below 696 in existing six pack area.  Move cigarette/Aux power input here also) existing temp will show on G3 and also redundancy/indication on pilot side with G3.  The G3 seems to have the nicest lean indications color and temps that I have seen...

O.K. What problems does everybody see with this layout?  Use Dave's original co-pilot panel as guideline...

[HopePilot]

I won't be redoing my panel for years, but when I do, I'm using "turned metal."

 

http://www.fpmmetals.com/index.htm

[DaV8or]

Quote: flight2000

Dave,

I have some on my website that might help give you an idea.  There are a ton of wires and vacuum tubes in there.  The avionics shop took the pics and sent inprogress photos about every other week.

http://www.67m20e.com/panel_overhaul.htm

Brian

[DaV8or]

Quote: HopePilot

I won't be redoing my panel for years, but when I do, I'm using "turned metal."

 

http://www.fpmmetals.com/index.htm

[HopePilot]

You'd rather see than look cool?  Where are your priorities?

[DaV8or]

So I went out to the hangar today and did some investigating. Turns out, it was real easy to remove the previous owner's Airgizmo mount and look behind the panel. Also there is a little peice of aluminum above my audio panel that was just barely glued there, I had a peek there too. I now know that my option one for my MVP-50 posted earlier in this thread is never going to happen. The steel frame bars behind panel will not allow enough room for both the MVP-50 and the GNS 430. Looks as though my center stack will stay the same as it is now. Good news is, there does not seem to be any problem at all with option two.

Question is, how bad is it to have the tach and MP far to the right? Is that super annoying?

Here's what I saw today:

[DaV8or]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Dave:

Your posts have really got me thinking (regarding my right side panel).  Thank you.  I am thinking 696.  vertical RPM/Manifold pressure to immediate right.  EI volt (already have) top right.  EI fuel flow (already have) below that.  Remove my garwin Oil pressure/temp and install EI unit. (all certified as primary).  I have Cylinder temp with GEM (upgrading to G3 for certified primary on exhaust and cylinder temps) so no need for the Garwin gauge there.  Overhaul Garwin Fuel gauges at Kelly and mount below 696 in existing six pack area.  Move cigarette/Aux power input here also) existing temp will show on G3 and also redundancy/indication on pilot side with G3.  The G3 seems to have the nicest lean indications color and temps that I have seen...

O.K. What problems does everybody see with this layout?  Use Dave's original co-pilot panel as guideline...

[rbridges]

Quote: DaV8or

So I went out to the hangar today and did some investigating. Turns out, it was real easy to remove the previous owner's Airgizmo mount and look behind the panel. Also there is a little peice of aluminum above my audio panel that was just barely glued there, I had a peek there too. I now know that my option one for my MVP-50 posted earlier in this thread is never going to happen. The steel frame bars behind panel will not allow enough room for both the MVP-50 and the GNS 430. Looks as though my center stack will stay the same as it is now. Good news is, there does not seem to be any problem at all with option two.

Question is, how bad is it to have the tach and MP far to the right? Is that super annoying?

Here's what I saw today: