Computers and stuff in airplanes

[fantom]

It also depends on why we got into, and sometimes fell in love with, aviation.

 

Reaching out and touching the face of God, for me, has nothing to do with fancy new gizmos. For a while I've been concerned with the too often heads down tenancies of GA pilots, the multiple GPS cockpits, some blocking forward viability, and the concentration not on flying and maintenance, but gizmo switchology, the latest box, or what's the cheapest ADS-D alternative. Most MS discussion and a lot of the Mooney Summit talks were on these topics. People are putting more money into updated panels than their fifty year old planes are worth. If it makes them happy and their flying burden easier, great, but to me it makes them more bus driving computer operator and less flyer. The passion that's being a flyer is seeping away as folks become system operators.

 

It's necessary and understandable for commercial aviation, but for me, it's just a bit sad for GA pilots that for the most part, fly for fun. This thread is an interesting read, and reveals much about why we really fly. From the earliest days of flying to present day, it still comes down to the pilot and their plane, the melding of sights, sounds, and the feeling we experience as we control what has become a mechanical extension of ourselves.  Modern technology can augment our piloting skills, but never replace them. Truth be told, a lot of flying is ego driven, it's a big part of who we are. For me, it's much more the thrill of stick and rudder on a beautiful VFR day, than the challenge of hard IFR, putting my life in the hands of the latest boxes and my rote switchology memory. A fascinating dichotomy.

 

"Everything was in order. The world made total sense. We battled. No lasting advantage. He was brighter. I was smarter. He was faster, and I was quicker. Until… he hesitated coming out of a turn. His guns had jammed. You know, I could see him… pounding on the guns, trying to make them regain function. And I thought, “Run, Madden. Try for the clouds, but he didn’t.." German Fighter Ace to Waldo Pepper, The Great Waldo Pepper - 1975

I'll take Waldo, the Blue Max, or all those aviators who elected to stay in the cockpit rather than become 'spam in the can' astronauts.

 

Yes, I realize, each of us have differing motives and passions.

[Mooneymite]

Well said!

 

I agree with you as much as is possible on Mooneyspace....obviously I must disagree with something, but I don't know what....yet.  

[chrisk]

 

Reaching out and touching the face of God, for me, has nothing to do with fancy new gizmos. 

 

 

There are some other ways to think about this.  Do you get to fly more if your plane is IFR capable?   Are you going to take that beautiful 1000 mile trip if you are concerned about getting stuck?   If so, the investment can be worth it.

[1964-M20E]

I fly for fun but also to get somewhere wherever that may be and the ego side being able to brag a little about how I got there.  My most enjoyable times flying have usually been when I was learning something.  My first orientation flights in CAP as a cadet, getting my PPL, getting my IR and now learning to fly helicopters and as stated in another thread if money were little to no object I’d have a Stearman for the pure fun of flying.

 

My thoughts are if you are in it for fun then get a new rating every few years even if you will never really use it.  After the helicopter rating maybe CFI, tail dragger, glider that will cover me for the next several years.

 

[fantom]

Well, yeah....

 

There are some other ways to think about this. 

 

Which is why I pointed out our differing missions.

[Andy95W]

I guess it depends on your starting point. I added an Aspen to a panel with a basic DG and no HSI. So here is the additional capability the Aspen brought:

 

1)  HSI

2)  Backup AI

3)  Electrically powered, independent of vacuum system.

4)  Battery backup

5)  GPSS

6)  No more adjusting DG every 10 minutes!

7)  Wind speed and direction

8)  TAS

9)  Altitude alerter

10) Minimums alerter

Which would you rather have, an Aspen or a decent autopilot with altitude hold? I would love to have both, but of the two, I'll take the autopilot every time. An extra set of hands to keep the blue side up and hold the altitude while I make sense of the VOR needle and charts... Priceless.

But the moment I can convince my wife of the $10,000 buy in, I promise I will have an Aspen installed!

[rbuck]

I learned on old gauges, and I prefer the old gauges. Like some others alluded to on here, for me it's all about the romance of the flight. I feel like putting in glass cockpits just detracts from that. 

I do, however, think that engine monitors and whatnot are added safety benefits. I plan on adding some of those to my old Mooney at some point. Glass cockpits, though? They probably won't be added until VOR goes away and they really need to be.

[Marauder]

I took a while to respond to this thread. Why? Wasn't sure how to respond. I grew up on steam gauges and I understand the "stick and rudder" philosophy. I also lost friends because of it.

From 1991 until 2012, I flew steam. I was competent, confident but never cocky. I learned in 1993 while on an IFR flight over the "Bermuda Triangle" of the Northeast that lack of information, would kill me. Because of that experience, I tried to always stack the flights in my favor.

In December 2012 I installed the stuff I currently fly. There is no comparison. For you "stick and rudder" guys -- go for it... The stuff that is available with the newer electronics is Buzz Light Year ahead of the stuff that I relied on to get me home. The big question is dependency than extension of your God given ability as aviators.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I said previously that I was bipolar, but like so many aviation related decisions, it comes down to your mission.

 

Acclaim: For flying high, fast and far in all conditions, often with my wife, and soon with Angel Flight patients. The G1000 significantly reduces my workload, allows me to stay ahead of a very high performance aircraft, and adds a huge safety margin when flying approaches IMC. Flying the Acclaim on steam gauges would certainly be doable, but it would be much more challenging.

 

RV-8: For tooling around the pattern and the local area on weekends, day VFR and almost always solo. Stick, rudder and steam gauges work just fine and I really enjoy the old school feel and the contrast with the Acclaim. That's why I bought it. I can't imagine ever putting glass in that plane.

[Bob - S50]

 

It also depends on why we got into, and sometimes fell in love with, aviation.

 

 

I agree.  I fly for a living (for another 17.1 million seconds) but I just started flying GA again last year.  I did it for multiple reasons:

 

I realized I could not just walk away from flying after 41 years when I retire.

I like seeing the world in more detail at 8000' rather than FL350.

I like avoiding the TSA when I go someplace.

I like the challenge of a job safely well done.

I like it for fun and for transportation.

The Mooney lets me do all that at a reasonable cost.

 

Bob

[chrisk]

For me the issue is not steam vs glass gauges.  Its more about the presentation of the information.   As an example, I really don't care much if the AI is an old style steam gauge, or an Aspen.  Both work for me, with a slight preference for the Aspen.  But for things like airspeed and the VSI, I much prefer the steam gauges because they present the information in an analog format.  A quick glance tells you approximately where you are.  And if the glass presented information this way, I would be happy with it too.

 

The steam gauges are appealing in another way too.  They are independent.  They all should not die at once.  And in theory, it should be cheaper to fix one steam gauge vs an integrated system.  --Of course, if someone made glass gauges that replaced steam gauges, I'd be happy with that too (like the RC 2600, but better).

 

Also, can some one explain why there isn't a universal CDI?   Get a new GPS and then you need to buy a new CDI.  It's one of the reasons I have an Aspen.

[Jimhamilton]

Jim, you might need a Champ or a J3 instead of that designed-to-travel 231. 

I can travel fast while I look outside. Nothing wrong with that.

[Hank]

For me the issue is not steam vs glass gauges.  Its more about the presentation of the information.   As an example, I really don't care much if the AI is an old style steam gauge, or an Aspen.  Both work for me, with a slight preference for the Aspen.  But for things like airspeed and the VSI, I much prefer the steam gauges because they present the information in an analog format.  A quick glance tells you approximately where you are.  And if the glass presented information this way, I would be happy with it too.

 

The steam gauges are appealing in another way too.  They are independent.  They all should not die at once.  And in theory, it should be cheaper to fix one steam gauge vs an integrated system.  --Of course, if someone made glass gauges that replaced steam gauges, I'd be happy with that too (like the RC 2600, but better).

 

Also, can some one explain why there isn't a universal CDI?   Get a new GPS and then you need to buy a new CDI.  It's one of the reasons I have an Aspen.

I like my steam gauges, and have no interest in speed tapes or altitude tapes. To see how fast or high I am, I have to look long enough to see the number; like my watch, a quick glance at the needles tells me everything, much faster.

The DG in my plane may have been replaced with the addition of either Brittain unit (AccuTrak & AccuFlight), but does not appear to have been replaced when the G430 was installed. Nor the VOR head either. All were already installed when I bought her.

[Danb]

A lot of this thread makes it sound as if one had certain electronic devices they are not capable to navigate from point a to b. A few stated that we had our heads down and therefore was not flying the craft, I do agree we are more managers due to the equip. That is being monitored. It seems to me now ...my mind may be fuzzy since I have been flying for decades, I seem to remember my head was stuck in the cockpit quite a bit with the whiz wheel cranking , looking at all the sectionals trying to find the railroad tracks should have been here 4 minutes ago, gosh where's that water tank ...sure I don't want to go back to dead reckoning beating my brain to a frenzy looking like a crazy man to my passengers. On and on...Nope give me my TAA airplane let me be more precise and calm when approaching decision hgt. Plus more refreshed ...My speed is still 125 knots whether it's on a round dial, gauge or on a speed strip,,I like my backup camera in my car, a beep when I'm to close to something..does that make us worse drivers, more informed drivers. Pilots who knows..I'm not going to bust someone's balls because they get there info from an Aspen or Garmin 530. Loran. Etc...nor am I going to suggest that Aspen Pilot has diminished skills due to his/her modern equip. We could go throughout out airplanes and say in the good old days didn't need this or have that..Sometimes I don't get it...

[FlyDave]

A lot of this thread makes it sound as if one had certain electronic devices they are not capable to navigate from point a to b. A few stated that we had our heads down and therefore was not flying the craft, I do agree we are more managers due to the equip. That is being monitored. It seems to me now ...my mind may be fuzzy since I have been flying for decades, I seem to remember my head was stuck in the cockpit quite a bit with the whiz wheel cranking , looking at all the sectionals trying to find the railroad tracks should have been here 4 minutes ago, gosh where's that water tank ...sure I don't want to go back to dead reckoning beating my brain to a frenzy looking like a crazy man to my passengers. On and on...Nope give me my TAA airplane let me be more precise and calm when approaching decision hgt. Plus more refreshed ...My speed is still 125 knots whether it's on a round dial, gauge or on a speed strip,,I like my backup camera in my car, a beep when I'm to close to something..does that make us worse drivers, more informed drivers. Pilots who knows..I'm not going to bust someone's balls because they get there info from an Aspen or Garmin 530. Loran. Etc...nor am I going to suggest that Aspen Pilot has diminished skills due to his/her modern equip. We could go throughout out airplanes and say in the good old days didn't need this or have that..Sometimes I don't get it...

Excellent perspective Dan!

[PMcClure]

Flying Magazine has an article about this topic (Unusual Attitudes) in the October issue. She advocates both the new stuff and the need to keep sharpening our piloting skills. 

[DS1980]

That's a generic response. She must have taken lessons from Captain Obvious.

Nice guy, but says the most unnecessary things.

[carusoam]

What is the issue...?

1) Digital displays cause distraction more than rotary slide rules...?

2) Digital tuning cause more distraction than analog tuning...?

3) Digital pilots have more data available to them...?

4) Analog pilots are blissfully unaware of all the data that is available?

In the most analog Mooney there are plenty of things to be distracted by.

Like always...

The pilot is in command of the technology, analog or digital.

I am looking forward to an IP full of digital displays..., unfortunately, I'll still be the CB I used to be,

-a-