Newbie, intending to buy a M20C and have some questions

[Flyingtexan]

Hello everyone,

 

I will be in the market for a M20C in the next several months. I am awaiting a pending transfer back to Texas (home) and once moved will be in the market. I've been following the M20C market for about 15 years and am now in the right place and have a true need for an airplane (travelling to see the grandkids), it will be my first airplane.

 

I've looked at C172 and others and I can't see owning anything else. Speed, simplicity, economy and the sheer attractiveness makes the M20C an no brainer, especially for the same price or less, than a modestly outfitted mid time 172.

 

My question(s) is how hard are they to fly compared to high wings. I'm an ATP multi and a Commercial Single with about 6000 hours, I fly for a living, just never flown a Mooney. Most of my time is in King Airs and larger stuff, Cessna Citations, Shorts 360s and some Cessna 206 and 210 time.

 

Will I need time with an instructor for insurance purposes? I'm also an A&P and will most likely be doing most of the maintenance unless it gets over my head.

 

What are the suggestions from the knowledge here? Also any must look for mechanical issues that I may have missed from my studies. Ownership experience beats the book knowledge every time.

 

I know some of these questions sound dumb but, hey if it was a plane I had time in I'd be fine. I've just never even sat in a Mooney, much less flown one.

 

Thanks.

[DonMuncy]

You will not have any trouble flying a Mooney. The only thing much different is landing. The Mooney is not hard to land, it is just less forgiving of poor speed control.

Where in Texas are you moving to. If Dallas, call me and we will get you oriented.

[gregwatts]

Go rent one.......and fly it......and then buy it!. If you are flying a Citation, this may be a little fast for you...........just sayin'

[Flyingtexan]

Moving to south Texas, but I'm from Austin and travel there frequently. Thanks for the offer. Any suggestions on a Texas CFI in the Mooney in case insurance requires a checkout?

[Flyingtexan]

Who's renting Mooneys and where?

[gsxrpilot]

I've got an M20C based at 84R just east of Austin.  Let me know if you're in town, I'll take you for a ride and you can try it out.

 

Cheers,

Paul

[Flyingtexan]

Thanks Paul, I might take you up on that as we pass thru, moving. My son and grandkids live in the Giddings area so we may just be calling you. Very nice of you. I'll PM you when the move gets near.

[carusoam]

Find the search button at the top right of your screen, select 'forums' as well...

You will find the answers to all the questions you haven't thought of yet....

Enjoy,

-a-

[Flyingtexan]

Thanks Dave! Great information and I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. You and I are in the same boat, all jet and turbine and helicopters my whole career. And I never had to worry about maintenance, it was always someone else's job. Yep I will have about a 6 hour drive to my family in Austin, so hence the 2+20 flight is so much better.

 

Thanks so much for the answers and your time and effort in answering me.

[Super Dave]

  On 4/2/2014 at 1:08 AM, Flyingtexan said:

 

My question(s) is how hard are they to fly compared to high wings. I'm an ATP multi and a Commercial Single with about 6000 hours, I fly for a living, just never flown a Mooney. Most of my time is in King Airs and larger stuff, Cessna Citations, Shorts 360s and some Cessna 206 and 210 time.

 

Will I need time with an instructor for insurance purposes?

Welcome to Mooneyspace,

I was in a situation similar to yours: Flying turbines for a living, but out of light planes altogether for several years. I had never flown a Mooney until buying into a partnership on an F model a couple of years ago.

For the most part, I found the Mooney to be no more difficult to fly than high wing Cessnas with the exception of flare and touch down. Even when crossing the threshold on speed, I still get into a little pilot induced osscilation in the flare sometimes. My other struggle is gently lowering the nose after the mains touch. I always felt like I could hold the nose off forever in Cessnas, but it seems that my Mooney nose gear is making contact shortly after the mains whether I'm ready or not.

Our insurance required a checkout by a CFI with no hour requirement, but I would have wanted to fly with someone with Mooney experience anyway. You can sit down with the POH and teach yourself all about limitations, systems, and performance, but landings are different enough that you'll want a good coach to talk you through the first few.

[Hector]

I have a 67 C with a little over 5000 hours on the airframe and 950 on a factory remanufactured engine. I purchased her two years ago from a friend and I've put around 150 hours. Good IFR platform and I found it very easy to fly and I don't gave near the experience that you have. Insurance company insisted on 10 hours of dual and it was well worth it specially since I found a CFI that owns a mooney as well. Tips and advice I got from him were on the spot. Love the manual gear. It will take you a few hours to learn how to do it in one continuous fluid motion but after that it is simple to operate and maintain.

As others have said, a good pre-buy is really important and in Texas you have some of the best Mooney experts in the country to help you with that. The high hours in my bird did not concern me at all as Mooneys are built tough. Mine had always been kept in a hangar and was corrosion free and very well maintained. I do owner assisted annuals and I'm getting ready to do my second. No surprises on the first annual and I even insisted on removing all the interior panels to check all the steel welded frame. I typically cruise between 7-10K and do 140 Kts at 9.2 gallons per hour. Not too bad on 180 HP. Reliability to date has been excellent and I could no be happier with my bird.

Take your time and find a good one, and by all means do some research here. Lots of folks with lots of Mooney knowledge.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Hank]

My only suggestion, having bought my C just after my PPL checkride, is to learn the pattern speeds and fly them accurately. For me, that's 90 mph entry with Takeoff flaps, drop gear, 90 mph base, roll wings level at 85 mph on final, slowing to 70-75 on short final. This is for a "standard" ½ mile pattern [same distance out as having the runway ~2/3 up the wing strut on a 172].

 

I generally run MP + RPM/100 = 46 to 47, although at 10K I keep RPM at 2500. For improved atomization in the carb, I back off from WOT just enough to make the MP needle move; the injected guys fly WOT from takeoff to pattern entry.

 

The landing is very close to the runway--stand beside the wing root and see how high it is [isn't?] on your leg. "Float" can be a bad thing, if the runway is short or the wind is blowing hard. Be on speed, and NEVER ADD 5 MPH "FOR SAFETY." I like 75 mph near gross, and the rule of thumb is to subtract 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross. Landing speed isn't much different than doing a full-stall landing in a 172, and I hear my stall horn routinely on landing. Pushing the nose down, or even just relaxing in the flare, leads to nasty porpoising, and the third bounce generally gets the prop. I will try to save on one bounce, on bounce number two I push everything forward and go around.

 

Other than that, have fun! Taking a few turns with a Mooney-savvy instructor to get the landing differences will probably be beneficial. I think gear and flaps went electric in 68 or 69; for several years before that, electric was an option.

[Wildhorsesracing]

Welcome to MooneySpace! 

 

I have a '62 C and agree that proper landing speed is the key. I love the johnson bar gear and hydraulic flaps - very easy to operate.

 

I was a low time pilot and had to get 5 hrs of dual. For the proper sight picture on landing my CFI had me do a few "fast taxis" up/down the runway to get the nose wheel off the ground but not lift off. It taught me to how to properly modulate the throttle and stare out the front to keep the proper view.  Worked perfectly!

[Danb]

Guys are right on concerning speed, I have not flown for 4 months and took it to Weber's for an oil change yesterday and nailed my landing, going back into KILG though I was high and fast then the controller switched runways on me nonetheless I was about 10 knts fast and floated a long way finished off by a hard landing (a little)..need to practice and be patient!!!!!

[pinerunner]

With your extensive background I can't imagine you'll have any trouble. I took about 7 hour getting my biannual as an introduction to mine after having laid off flying for more than a decade. It seemed a lot like the Comanche (180hp) that I got complex time in back in the 70's which didn't seem like that big a deal compared to the Cherokees and Cessna 172s I mostly flew. The Mooney's sit lower in ground effect than those other planes and that explains much of its reputation for floating. I guess its reputation for speed leads some to disbelieve the published approach speed numbers and tack on an extra 10-20 kts in which case its no wonder they use a lot of runway.

 

Some of the best fun for the buck for serious pilots these days.

[Flyingtexan]

Thanks again for all the great advice.

[DaV8or]

  On 4/2/2014 at 3:06 AM, Super Dave said:

My other struggle is gently lowering the nose after the mains touch. I always felt like I could hold the nose off forever in Cessnas, but it seems that my Mooney nose gear is making contact shortly after the mains whether I'm ready or not.

 

That's because if the main wheels are solidly on the ground, the Mooney is done flying. I too cannot "wheelie" the Mooney like is so easy to do in a Cessna. I imagine if you kept some power in it would give the elevator more authority, but the trade off would be to suck up a lot of runway. I just hold the back pressure and let the nose come down whenever it wants.

[DaV8or]

To the OP-

 

• Do some searching here so you know what questions to ask on the first call and how to read the ads in the first place. Also so you have the basics when you go for the initial inspection.
• Get the logs emailed to you so you can go over them at home.
• Run the N number through this site to find out history on the plane. http://report.myairplane.com/ Also the NTSB site as it has things the other site doesn't always catch. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx
• Get a pre purchase inspection done by a reputable MSC. Not hard for you. You're in Texas.
• Do a title search and I recommend purchase contract and escrow service.
• Get a checkout by a Mooney CFI even though the insurance company won't need it. It'll get you up to speed faster.
• Be prepared for a higher than average first few annuals. It just seems to go that way and kind of normal for when a 40-50 year old plane changes custodians.
• Enjoy the Mooney life and keep her in a hangar if you can.
• Post pictures here! It's required, no exceptions!

I would also say join MooneySpace.com, but you are way ahead of the game.

[Rhumbline]

All sound advice above.  Airspeed control in the pattern has been sufficiently hammered but I feel compelled to reiterate the message at least one more time.  Not having flown anything for eight years and a light aircraft for many more when I impulsively (15 years? I'd say your homework is probably about done.  Foolishly, I doubt I gave it 15 hours of thought!) obtained a Mooney last year.  I'm still struggling with the comparatively slow (very slow to me) airspeeds; particularly in gusty/turbulent conditions.  I've had the worst time convincing myself that the thing isn't going to drop out from under me and that there are no cores to spool up (ie, get that GD power off!).  Consequently, I still suffer some excruciatingly long (time and distance) flares from time to time.   

[Marauder]

  On 4/2/2014 at 12:21 PM, Danb said:

Guys are right on concerning speed, I have not flown for 4 months and took it to Weber's for an oil change yesterday and nailed my landing, going back into KILG though I was high and fast then the controller switched runways on me nonetheless I was about 10 knts fast and floated a long way finished off by a hard landing (a little)..need to practice and be patient!!!!!

 

What time were you out there Dan? I heard a Mooney when I was up around 6 pm.

[Hank]

  On 4/2/2014 at 3:25 PM, DaV8or said:

That's because if the main wheels are solidly on the ground, the Mooney is done flying. I too cannot "wheelie" the Mooney like is so easy to do in a Cessna. I imagine if you kept some power in it would give the elevator more authority, but the trade off would be to suck up a lot of runway. I just hold the back pressure and let the nose come down whenever it wants.

 

I try to remember to increase back pressure to full travel after the mains hit, but still the nose is usually down about a half-second later. It can still be smooth, though, if the stall horn is hooting.

[Mooneymite]

I was in a similar situation 15 years ago.  Lots of heavy turbine time, not much little airplane time.  I bought my C Mooney without  even so much as sitting in a Mooney beforehand.  I read the owner's manual the night before, the previous owner sat with me through three take-offs and three landings and I flew it home.  The insurance company required no checkout, no sign off, no nothing.  The Mooney flies just like any other airplane....maybe better.  You'll have no problems.

 

The only mental transition that was tough was the concept of owning what I was flying!  All my time previously had been in someone else's airplane. 

 

It's been a great 15 years!  You will enjoy the experience immensely.

 

 

[Flyingtexan]

Yep, owning will be a mental transition. Thanks. I've tried to treat all the equipment I've flow as if it was mine and as an accident investigator/safety officer for my company I've seen what happens when you don't.

 

Again everyone, thanks for the great advice.

[Wildhorsesracing]

There is a decent M20C on Ebay that is a great candidate to make into whatever you want...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151264546376?forcerRptr=true&item=151264546376

[rob]

It is always an order of magnitude less expensive to buy one how you want it as opposed to building it yourself.