Flight following along complex route

[Jamie]

n00b question.

 

I'm not instrument rated yet. I get flight following when I go somewhere, and so far that has been "direct". Like:

 

"Huntsville Clearance, Mooney 1138J, VFR direct FOO Foxtrot Oscar Oscar at 8500, request flight following."

 

The trip to Orlando will not be direct. I'd like to insert a few waypoints to take me around and between some of the airspace along the way. What's the best way to handle this and still get flight following?

 

 

[201er]

Next time try requesting "radar advisories" instead.
 

[Jamie]

What's the diff? I've heard of "VFR traffic advisories" but frustratingly, the recommended phraseology changes depending on who you ask. I'm following (heh) a pattern I saw recommened on (at least) pilotsofamerica.com and (iirc) an AOPA article.

 

I'll change if "radar advisories" is more standard, of course. I very much want to NOT sound like the sunday fliers I hear enroute.

[PMcClure]

With VFR flight following, you direct your own path, altitude, etc... You can ask for flight following  and fly your own route. They may or may not care which way you were going. Any advice they give you (heading, speed, altitude) is only a suggestion. You are being given advisory for traffic and it also helps them (usually) to be in contact with you, rather than being unknown.

 

I used to fly a a lot of VFR flights around Orlando. It's no big deal. Sometimes I would tell them a route, sometimes they would ask me where  I am going since I was obviously not direct. When leaving Huntsville, you can give the same statement to clearance and add via (enroute fix), etc... Or you can just say, ....VFR departure to South East, request flight following. My experience in Huntsville is that they always set me up for flight following if I am VFR, even if I don't ask.  Where you going in Orlando? 

[PMcClure]

PS - I sometimes use the term "radar advisories" if I am doing air work near a busy air space. This simply means you get a squawk code and ATC will advise you on traffic warnings, if they have time. It's a good idea for to be in contact with ATC when there is a good chance of conflicts. But I think the correct terminology for VFR enroute advisory service is "request flight following". 

[Jamie]

Ok, that sort of makes sense. I assumed they needed my route but really, they probably just need to know the direction so they know who to coordinate with (guessing here). I do know that sometimes (not always) I'll give the above info and they'll still want to know the depature heading (which, again, makes sense because they can't be expected to know where every airport is.)

 

I'd like to go into Orlando Executive (KORL). It's a few miles from where I'd like to be once on the ground.

[PMcClure]

If you are flying into ORL, they are going to assign you a route anyway. I would start out direct and somewhere about the pan handle, they will give you a route. If you act like you know what you are doing, it will almost be like IFR (but you are responsible for separation). Most likely they will give you a route that brings you over Ocala then the Victor 159-295 airway which will bring you right to ORL. They will start stepping you down and usually keep you below Bravo air space. 

[larryb]

My understanding is that once you "participate" by asking for vfr flight following, any instructions they give "maintain vfr at 4000" are not merely a suggestion but instructions that must be followed.

[PMcClure]

My understanding is that once you "participate" by asking for vfr flight following, any instructions they give "maintain vfr at 4000" are not merely a suggestion but instructions that must be followed.

As I understand it, flight following is voluntary on both sides. But you may be right, I have never tried to be rowdy with them! If you deny a requested heading, they aren't going to continue with the service. But I don't think you can get busted for not adhering to certain headings, or altitudes like you can in IFR. But to his main question of what phraseology to use upon contact with clearance, I would ask say, HSV clearance, Mooney 1051K, VFR to ORL (Via OCF), niner thousand 500, request flight following.....

[rainman]

Is it too old school to just file a VFR flight plan?

[jlunseth]

You could also just tell someone where you are going and when you will be there, it has the same effect as a flight plan and you are not required to open and close it.

[midlifeflyer]

My understanding is that once you "participate" by asking for vfr flight following, any instructions they give "maintain vfr at 4000" are not merely a suggestion but instructions that must be followed.

 

Absolutely. 

[midlifeflyer]

n00b question.

 

I'm not instrument rated yet. I get flight following when I go somewhere, and so far that has been "direct". Like:

 

"Huntsville Clearance, Mooney 1138J, VFR direct FOO Foxtrot Oscar Oscar at 8500, request flight following."

 

The trip to Orlando will not be direct. I'd like to insert a few waypoints to take me around and between some of the airspace along the way. What's the best way to handle this and still get flight following?

 

Simple. 

 

My basic rule about course changes is exactly the same as altitude changes: ATC is nice enough to give me FF service, so I', nice enought to let them know what I'm going to do before I do it. 

 

Just request flight following to Orlando. If you are starting out direct but deviating later, wait until you are going to change course, and tell them. If you are starting out in other than a fairly direct route, tell them the first "via" and then update them.

[flyboy0681]

Simple. 

 

My basic rule about course changes is exactly the same as altitude changes: ATC is nice enough to give me FF service, so I', nice enought to let them know what I'm going to do before I do it. 

 

 

I used to think that too but an air traffic controller friend told me that they are sometimes annoyed by that call. You will know how annoyed they are by the tone of how they respond with "descend at pilot's discretion". 

[Shadrach]

n00b question.

 

I'm not instrument rated yet. I get flight following when I go somewhere, and so far that has been "direct". Like:

 

"Huntsville Clearance, Mooney 1138J, VFR direct FOO Foxtrot Oscar Oscar at 8500, request flight following."

 

The trip to Orlando will not be direct. I'd like to insert a few waypoints to take me around and between some of the airspace along the way. What's the best way to handle this and still get flight following?

My question is why are you concerned about airspace?  VFR advisories in flight is sort of the best of IFR and VFR combined.  Once you're receiving advisories, the controllers will vector you around, in between or through any airspace you encounter in route.  I think it would be more difficult to traverse the eastern seaboard without VFR advisories. The only caveat is one needs to be prepared for a sector to refuse services in route. It's typically no problem to get back into the system with the next sector, but one needs to be prepared to go it alone if a controller says "unable to hand of to next sector, radar services terminated, squawk VFR".   

[mike_elliott]

Request Radar services and handoffs to ORL. ATC will give you vectors and altitude changes as they need to for separation. You must follow their instructions or cancel radar services. They will keep you away from any TFR's Restricted and hot MOA's this way.

[mike_elliott]

My question is why are you concerned about airspace?  VFR advisories in flight is sort of the best of IFR and VFR combined.  Once you're receiving advisories, the controllers will vector you around, in between or through any airspace you encounter in route.  I think it would be more difficult to traverse the eastern seaboard without VFR advisories. The only caveat is one needs to be prepared for a sector to refuse services in route. It's typically no problem to get back into the system with the next sector, but one needs to be prepared to go it alone if a controller says "unable to hand of to next sector, radar services terminated, squawk VFR".   

If they do dump you, politely ask them for the frequency of the next sector that can provide radar services, they will gladly tell you how to be somebody else's issue,

[flyboy0681]

If they do dump you, politely ask them for the frequency of the next sector that can provide radar services, they will gladly tell you how to be somebody else's issue,

 

When flying north, Tampa is notorious for not handing VFR aircraft off to Jacksonville after clearing their coverage area. This happens to me each and every time.

[Shadrach]

I used to think that too but an air traffic controller friend told me that they are sometimes annoyed by that call. You will know how annoyed they are by the tone of how they respond with "descend at pilot's discretion". 

ATC will often ask you to "advise of any altitude changes", if they do, you'd better believe it's for a reason.  From a regulatory standpoint, I believe that unless you are in Class B,C or D airspace, or being vectored for traffic, altitude and course is at the discretion of the pilot. It's a touchy situation, I was once barked at for deviating from my cruising altitude to get over some weather. The controller was busy and I had to start climbing before I could get a word in.  On the other hand, I've notified controllers of altitude changes and gotten the "like I give a $hit" reply.  I've learned not to take any of it personally and try to er on the side of maximum communication of pertinent information, but balancing it with brevity and phraseology that limits the length of transmissions. I find radio hogs annoying and I've found that it's not limited to any type of aviation. One of the worst offenders I've heard was while sitting on a commercial flight. I was tuned to channel 9 listening to the FO and he was pretty bad. Every transmission started with a protracted "aaaaaand". He was also a fan of the flight#/N# sandwich. Combine that with a disregard for standard phraseology and you got "aaaaaaaaaaaandddd Flight#1465 heading two forty outta 9 for 20, Flight#1465"... Cringe worthy...I went back to the in flight entertainment...

[Jeff_S]

I'm not aware of a difference between "radar advisories" and "flight following."  Both will get you a squawk code and the same level of support. Generally if you are not in controlled [C or B] airspace they won't give you any vectors except for extreme traffic emergencies.

[PMcClure]

Flight following usually works well for me. But recently, I learned a new ATC trick. Flying out of KPLR, you leave BHM air space pretty quick. You also have a restricted area and no radar coverage below 6000' for a while. I usually file IFR. But on the last flight, I called BHM departure. Was told "VFR a/c calling BHM, stand by". He ignored my next two calls and then finally responded, saying I was out his area and radar coverage. Contact ATL on .... then I was left negotiating with ATL center who really doesn't have time to get flight following set-up. I was over Rome before I finally got a squawk code. I was miffed at the BHM guy but secretly impressed with how well he dissed me!

[Shadrach]

If they do dump you, politely ask them for the frequency of the next sector that can provide radar services, they will gladly tell you how to be somebody else's issue,

Yup, almost never have to ask. It's typically "squawk VFR, contact Bradley approach on 127.8 for further advisories"..

[201er]

Once you're receiving advisories, the controllers will vector you around, in between or through any airspace you encounter in route.

Beware, ATC is not obligated to vector you or keep you out of airspace if you're VFR. They are only providing traffic advisories to you and keeping you away from IFR traffic. They can get busy and you can fly yourself right into a restricted zone or bravo airspace and it's your fault not theirs.

[PMcClure]

ATC will often ask you to "advise of any altitude changes", if they do, you'd better believe it's for a reason.  From a regulatory standpoint, I believe that unless you are in Class B,C or D airspace, or being vectored for traffic, altitude and course is at the discretion of the pilot. 

 

I have noticed a very careful wording from ATC when getting vector advisories for traffic. They usually say something like, Traffic, 1:00, 5,000'. Mooney. "suggest 10 degrees left" for avoidance". They usually make a point of suggesting a heading for traffic, not assigning a heading. 

[flyboy0681]

ATC will often ask you to "advise of any altitude changes", if they do, you'd better believe it's for a reason.  From a regulatory standpoint, I believe that unless you are in Class B,C or D airspace, or being vectored for traffic, altitude and course is at the discretion of the pilot. 

 

More like they will tell you to report any altitude changes, in which case you had better comply.