Rush Hour Alternative Business

[Seth]

"Update"  I'm thinking of creating a subscription based flying service flying people around rush hour traffic in the Washington DC Area - I've revived this thread and will add to it - I also at this point will make a poll.  Thank you in advance for the opinons on MooneySpace - very realistic. 

 

I may not move forward, but I appreciate the chair CFOs, CEOs, Ops Managers, and Pilots, and opionons out there.

 

-Seth

 

 

 

 

I find myself pondering often about creating a business similar but different to Surf Air for on-demand of some sort flying around rush hour traffic.  Using a Piper Six or a Seneca or something that has a club configuration, and simply flying people over or around rush our traffic.  Since the distance for most of these hops is less than 100 NM, probably closer to 30 or less NM, speed of the airplane is not that important. 

 

For instance, DC (which is kind of hard to work with due to the SFRA, but possible), LA, Houston, Chicago, Atlanta,  - these are all markets that have horrible rush hour.  The question is, what is someone willing to pay to get from just north of Baltimore MD and be dropped off walking distance to metro at say, College park for their meeting in downtown DC? Or Fredericksburg, or WV to somewhere closer. 

 

If you make this some sort of integrated system with smartphone apps to sign up for the flights, and then have the airplanes on some sort of rotating or on demand schedule to an extent, is this scenario even worth looking into? 

 

How often does someone get caught in LA or Orange County traffic and just wants to get from one side of the city to the other?  1.5 hours?  2 hours?  How about 15 minutes in the air plus 5 minutes on either side. 

 

Obviously it would have to get worked out, but who has tried this before?  Anyone?  What failed, why did it not work?

 

Would a private service like this work for flying to avoid rush hour in certain cities that have the proper airfields in place already?  Obviously the seats would have to be filled to make it worth it, but to have three flights a day into lets say, college park MD, walking distnace to Metro from Frederick, Hagerstown, north of Baltimore?  That's a lot faster than sitting through traffic.  At airports without close downtown like transportation, a van could be ready to go to get people to the central hub.

 

On the weekends, the aircraft could be used to transport rabid sports fans to college towns, or in the summer to the beach, for again not having to deal with traffic.  DC to Blacksburg VA (Virginia Tech).  PA (Penn State) etc. . .  The east coast beachs on the weekend - VA Beach, Ocean City, MD, Jersey Shore.  So speed of the aircraft would be a bit more important here, but really - comes down on longer trips to less than 20 or 30 min differance.

 

Thoughts, and thank you.  I may have posted this once before, but Surf Air is just on my mind (and frankly, as do the founders, I think it would work on the east coast - but that's a different topic all together).

 

-Seth

[FloridaMan]

Sounds like a great idea if you can figure out the whole part 135 thing and can make it work. It may be easier to just get a Cherokee Six, throw a mattress in the back and operate with a commercial certificate and letter of authorization to do "sightseeing" tours within 25 miles of your airport. Take off, fly around at 5,280 ft or higher, charge your passengers $1000 and give them a certificate. 

[pirate]

Better have a buddy all ready doing 135 operations so you can jump on his certificate. Trying to get a new start up 135 cert is almost impossible these days.

[Seth]

Sounds like a great idea if you can figure out the whole part 135 thing and can make it work. It may be easier to just get a Cherokee Six, throw a mattress in the back and operate with a commercial certificate and letter of authorization to do "sightseeing" tours within 25 miles of your airport. Take off, fly around at 5,280 ft or higher, charge your passengers $1000 and give them a certificate. 

I've actually thought of that.  Mile High Adventures or something like that.  But I'd try to bury it in multiple LLCs so that it woudl be harder to find out it was me. 

 

Not only do you get a certificate, you get to keep the sheets!

 

-Seth

[Seth]

Better have a buddy all ready doing 135 operations so you can jump on his certificate. Trying to get a new start up 135 cert is almost impossible these days.

I may have a buddy that I can already jump on with this - as well as a Seneca ready to go.  I know of a piper six for sale who may also give some seed money.  My thought, and I haven't started doing any research except running things in my head - will it even break even?  Make sense?  Etc . . .

 

-Seth

[1964-M20E]

years ago I was in Houston near Hobby for business I vlew into Hobby my flight back out of Bush.  I had a short hop in a twin fom Hobby to Bush.  Kind of neat and did not have to endure 1.5 hrs of traffic.

[aviatoreb]

I am not making a poll out of this one, though I could

 

I find myself pondering often about creating a business similar but different to Surf Air for on-demand of some sort flying around rush hour traffic.  Using a Piper Six or a Seneca or something that has a club configuration, and simply flying people over or around rush our traffic.  Since the distance for most of these hops is less than 100 NM, probably closer to 30 or less NM, speed of the airplane is not that important. 

 

For instance, DC (which is kind of hard to work with due to the SFRA, but possible), LA, Houston, Chicago, Atlanta,  - these are all markets that have horrible rush hour.  The question is, what is someone willing to pay to get from just north of Baltimore MD and be dropped off walking distance to metro at say, College park for their meeting in downtown DC? Or Fredericksburg, or WV to somewhere closer. 

 

If you make this some sort of integrated system with smartphone apps to sign up for the flights, and then have the airplanes on some sort of rotating or on demand schedule to an extent, is this scenario even worth looking into? 

 

How often does someone get caught in LA or Orange County traffic and just wants to get from one side of the city to the other?  1.5 hours?  2 hours?  How about 15 minutes in the air plus 5 minutes on either side. 

 

Obviously it would have to get worked out, but who has tried this before?  Anyone?  What failed, why did it not work?

 

Would a private service like this work for flying to avoid rush hour in certain cities that have the proper airfields in place already?  Obviously the seats would have to be filled to make it worth it, but to have three flights a day into lets say, college park MD, walking distnace to Metro from Frederick, Hagerstown, north of Baltimore?  That's a lot faster than sitting through traffic.  At airports without close downtown like transportation, a van could be ready to go to get people to the central hub.

 

On the weekends, the aircraft could be used to transport rabid sports fans to college towns, or in the summer to the beach, for again not having to deal with traffic.  DC to Blacksburg VA (Virginia Tech).  PA (Penn State) etc. . .  The east coast beachs on the weekend - VA Beach, Ocean City, MD, Jersey Shore.  So speed of the aircraft would be a bit more important here, but really - comes down on longer trips to less than 20 or 30 min differance.

 

Thoughts, and thank you.  I may have posted this once before, but Surf Air is just on my mind (and frankly, as do the founders, I think it would work on the east coast - but that's a different topic all together).

 

-Seth

 

Seth, I just don't think these airplanes are up to the task of 7 days a week scheduled carrier service for impatient non pilot unsympathetic business types who think they will pay money to save time and arrive on time.  Will they be willing to be delayed 2 hours while summer thunderstorms rumble through the DC corridor?  Will you be willing to depart with tstorms bearing down on the area to dodge the build ups?  Will the customers who THINK they want to launch despite weather be happy with the very bumpy ride that results?  Be sure to carry air sick bags.  At least the pilatus flights of the surf air model can fly in the mid flight levels above a good bit of weather.

 

That's just my naysayer - two cents.

That said....check out cape air that flies all around the north east in 10 seater configured Cessna 402's.  They have something like a 97% on time record and they have pilots who are well trained in their own home grown weather flying corporate knowledge school with great success.  I have flown with them several times in weather that is well above my head and I have actually had the experience to watch how they maneuver around active weather (they let people sit as passengers in the right seat which is a really useful lesson for me in watching weather scenarios unfold that I would not want to launch in with my own skills sets as they are).

[M016576]

Ever heard / seen some of the pax when "daddy" or "mommy" charters a pilatus or king air to take their families skiing? How about commercial air pax riding on an EMB-120? I see these families fairly regularly at mammoth and KSUN (yes, I fly my NA J there... No, I don't have, want or need a turbo. . )

those aircraft may cost 5-10 million, but to the rich, spoiled or unaware, it's just "a dangerous little prop plane."

Now try to sell a Seneca, bonanza or Saratoga to that crowd: they'd rather take their cars and sit in traffic, I think....

I see what you're saying, I just don't think that the market is there for the costs you'd incur.

[201er]

Seth, what makes you think someone who can afford and wants to get there by air tansit is going to want to end up on public transit? Also aviatoreb made a great point. How can people trust the service unless you can guarantee 7 day a week service, no excuses? When it comes to making it to work, it's better to be stuck in traffic but know you'll end up getting there than to arrive to the airport to learn the plane is broke down or weather isn't flyable.

 

Insanely rich people can do this by helicopter. Then they really are saving time because they go departure to destination and pretty much direct. If you gotta drive to an airport, wait for all the other passengers to arrive and be loaded, fly, then walk to public tansit, then wait for it, then take it... what the heck?

 

As I'm sure you know by flying angel flight, it's different when it's volunteer based. You have no problem to refuse, cancel, postpone or do whatever to the flight as you're not being paid to do it. It's strictly voluntary and I think a component that makes it safer. When you start putting things on a schedule with small planes, you're adding a lot of risk.

 

I'd be glad if you could pull it off, albeit surprised, but I don't see how it could be made reliable and quick enough to justify it. Now a $50 helicopter service from DC center to NYC heliports would be interesting

[201er]

Oh and I forgot to mention, even looking at our own efficient Mooneys, how many times have you genuinely saved money using it? We love to justify to ourselves why we do it. But other than for pleasure or proficiency, can you even say that 1/4 of your flights saved you money over getting there by other means?

 

For certain in some specific cases you can save time and money by flying your own plane, but it's pretty rare isn't it? Basically you gotta fly between 2 non-major cities 400-800 miles apart with every seat filled to justify it over using a car or airline.

[bnicolette]

Seth I have always thought that this sort of setup should work.  I was surprised when Dayjet went down the tubes and I'm really pulling for SurfAir.  There are part 135 operators that have been using the Cirrus as a charter plane (Open Air) and have had enough success with it to keep running the service.

 

The problem other than the demand is; what airplane?  To offer any kind of scheduled service the plane must be equipped with FIKI, onboard radar and IMO if it doesn't have a 2nd engine or a turbine, then a chute is necessary.

 

I think the market you are looking for are not the types that would charter a King Air as mentioned above but the true middle/upper class professional.  A scheduled service would be difficult IMO but it would be interesting to see what would happen.  I think an on demand charter operation would be better to start with and then possibly offer a scheduled route.

 

I am a firm believer that a business will be successful if there is a need for it, offer a good service at a fair price and go over and above when it comes to customer service.

 

As far as the plane I really don't see a Cherokee six as being the answer.  I would say that a Cirrus or a Seneca could be promising and if something bigger is needed then either a Caravan, Pilatus or TBM.

 

Obtaining a part 135 certificate is certainly not impossible but takes time and money and to most probably prohibitively so.  As mentioned above the easiest route would be to either purchase one or get on somebody else's, although I think the FAA has really cracked down on this practice.

 

I am really looking forward to reading the posts on this question as I've been interested in this type of operation for some time!

[jetdriven]

years ago I was in Houston near Hobby for business I vlew into Hobby my flight back out of Bush.  I had a short hop in a twin fom Hobby to Bush.  Kind of neat and did not have to endure 1.5 hrs of traffic.

By the time you drive a half hour to Hobby, wait 20 minutes not to miss your flight, then get to IAH in 15-20 minutes, and take a 15 minute taxi ride to the terminal, its all a wash. Except the airplane ride cost you 80$ and its far cheaper to drive. The door-to-door times are similar.

[BigTex]

Given the right market, location and aircraft it can work. Check out Kenmore Air out of Seattle. They service the Puget Sound area where folks use them instead of ferry's all the time. They fly a fleet of Beaver's that deal with weather issues all the time and those guys are wildly successful. These guys only fly VFR and everyone knows this when they book so if weather moves in, everyone just rolls with it.

[Marauder]

Working in "corporate" America, I see a few challenges. The first is that most companies like mine have moved from the classical face to face work environment to remote telecommuting. Meeting Place, Web-Ex, Cisco TelePresence, Skype have replaced much of our brick and mortar offices. About 10 years ago we began closing offices because we could things remotely. Also being a multinational company, it is far much easier to do a video teleconference for our operations overseas than to get on a plane to meet.

 

We do still travel (trust me, I have the saddle sores from flying airlines) but much of it is done under agreements with the airlines. In other words, we commit to a certain volume of travel and we get a special rate.

 

I think what you are offering would require some solid market research to see if it is viable alternative to other means of transportation.

[Seth]

 

I think what you are offering would require some solid market research to see if it is viable alternative to other means of transportation.

 

Not offering - just thinking about.  I'm a financial advisor and full weatlh manager.  I actually work with a lot of pilots and the first think I tell them is that if I did not have a passion for aviation, I'd tell you to sell your airplane.  But, I never will do that unless you need to.  It is difficult to make money in avaition.  However, as pointed out, where there is a need, there is opportunity.

 

I use go-to-meeting, webex, and many remote features all the time, travel has indeed changed. 

 

Aircraft selection - good points brought up.  A PC-12 like Surf Air will cost $1000 an hour when all is said an done.  A Piper Seneca, C-206, or Piper Cherokee 300 / Piper 6 will cost between $250 and $400 per hour (quick adding up in my head on fuel, pilot, insurance, infrustructure costs). 

 

People not wanting nor realizing they can fly, weather issues, good points.  I think the person who signs up for this program will already have their back up plan - drive.

 

There's a guy who used to commute in his C-150 from Hagerstown to College park every day.  40 minute flight or 2.5 hour drive with traffic both ways. 

 

In cities where the infrastructure is there and traffic or terrain makes for a longer drive, there is opportunity.  The questions is how do you even conduct the proper market reserach?

 

Separaetly, everyone who has responded thus far has given great insight and I think you for that.  Keep it coming.

 

-Seth

[chrisk]

What ever plane you get, it will need air conditioning!

[carusoam]

I've seen short distance flights from the mainland to Islands on the east coast. You can use that model for reaserch.

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Cape air does that.

I remember once parking my plane in Hagerstown and driving to a meeting in Arlington - don't ask - I used to be afraid of the adziz.

3 hours drive in rush hour for ~40 miles to retrieve my plane... Now that I think about it maybe you have a good idea if you can work the details. - some people might just float your business.

[NotarPilot]

I live in the LA area and I really wish someone could pull it off and make it work. Traffic has only gotten worse since I've lived here. Before my day the was an outfit called Los Angeles Airways that flew Sikorsky S-61 helicopters between LA and Disneyland and a resort in Newport Beach. I don't know what their other destinations were. They were able to make it work for some time until they had two fatal accidents in a 5-6 month timespan with two of their helicopters which put them out of business a few years later. However they operated for almost 10 years.

Being that outfits like this are able to successfully operate in places like the Hamptons in New York only goes to show that the market is there for people who can afford it, when they want to save time. Keep the costs low and I believe you'll have a broader market base in which you'll appeal to. I just read Surf Air has several hundred people on their waiting list who want to become members and fork over $500 and $1650 a month. Maybe for a premium service you can offer a shuttle service at both ends for those who don't have alternate transportation options. I definitely believe it could work with the right business model.

[Seth]

So, I've turned back to this idea again, and really do think it has legs, so I'm going to move forward with some sort of business plan to see, beyond just the back of a napkin, and after putting a few spreadsheets together, if this idea could actually work.

 

I appreciate all the opinons noted so far, but positive and negative.  Facinating story about the helicopter service that used to fly in Los Angeles - I looked into that.  Also, Surf Air is working so far, thus the subscription based approach may indeed work.  I know that if it was to be truly profitable, someone would already be doing it.  BUT . . . no one has really attempted the subscription based approach.  Jet Blue and I forget which other airline tried a flat all you can fly rate for students a few years ago and it really didn't catch on - but this is a similar idea - different market.

 

For the holiday traffic just simply getting to my finance's parents took about 3.5 hours to go 67 miles South of DC.  Evidenlty, Rush hour is like this DAILY.  I drove back and forth twice (the second time was on Christmas, so it was an easy ride, about 1.5 hours) but the third time down, I flew the Mooney, and made it from office to thier house in about 1.5 hours - exactly the same as driving in no traffic. 

 

So . . . I need some opinions. 

 

This is going to be a Netflix like subxcription based program.  Like netflix of old, you got as many DVDs as you wanted per month, but could hold only 4 at any given time. These prices are not set, but just an example:

 

 

$600 per month = 2 boarding passes at any time

$1000 per month = 4 boarding passees at any time

$2000 per month = 10 boarding passes at any time

 

The boarding passes would be a website and phoen app system.  Very easy to use.  Companies such as law firms in Richmond and other close in areas may simply get a standing contract for x amount per month for up to x tickets.  The weekend charter flights to VA Tech and Penn State games, etc, would still occur as well to assist with revane - maybe there'd be a sports only package, and the usual crowd may have access to it, or get discounts.

 

 

For this to work, I'm going to start wtih an area I've VERY familiar with:  Washington, DC.  Immediate problems come to mind:

 

1.  SFRA/FRZ/DCA needing a pass through gateway airports and a security person onboard - this can actually be worked out.  The other location to land where no security is needed, just the FRZ vetting, is CGS - College Park. 

 

2.  Metro, Light Rail, HOV - a lot of competitors are already in place - the specific routes will have to be areas where there are consistent problems with the already in place systems, or there is a gap.

 

3.  Financing - I'm working on that - plenty of venture capital firms, private investors, and other groups that may be interested.  But first I need a good plan.

 

 

4.  What aircraft?  Expense comes into play.  College park (CGS - two block walk to Green Line Metro) is a relatively short runway but very flyable - I've done it in the Mooney no problem - 2607 x 60.  I've narrowed the aricraft choices down to the following - am I missing any?

 

1.  PC-12: $3-$4.5 million each - overkill but amazing and I could use later for expanded survice to the secondary model of Pittsburgh, Richmond, Philly, etc . . .

2.  Cessna 208B Caravan: $1 - $1.7 million each - this is the best choice - up to 9 passengers, turbine, less maintenance due to no folding gear, short hops.

3.  Piper Navajo 350: $300-$450 - high time airframes - much more affordable at first, similar operating costs to the caravan, 2 engines.

4.  Cessna 402  - $250-$400 - Similar as the Navajo - If I go this route woudl it be teh 402 or the Navajo?

5.  Piper Seneca:  $70-$110 - Twin, 4 club seats

6.  Piper Cherokee 6:  $60-$80 - Single, 4 club seats

 

A mix may make more sense with the Caravan handling the hot routes an a Piper 6 or two to serve as back up and handle the smaller areas.   Wtih three Piper 6's you have lower costs than a single caravan with more seats and flexibility - the question is who would want to ride in a Piper 6 vs a PC-12.

 

 

5.  What routes?  I'll work on that and come back with exactly what I plan to do. 

 

 

6.  Marketing - I'll cover this in a future post. Lot's of ideas.

 

 

7.  Subscription size that makes sense.  Will 300 individuals paying an average of $1000 per month, or $300,000 income monthly be enough to make this thing work?  It depends.  The more subscribers, expeonnetially the more possible it becomes, but how many people will become part of this subscription?  .05% of the DC commuteres? 

 

 

Expect many posts to follow.

 

-Seth

[201er]

Seth.... are you doing this to make money or just for shits and giggles?

[Mooneymite]

There's a small outfit in Maine that provides short hops to islands off the coast of Maine.  The folk that run it are very friendly and I suspect they've got plenty of time to talk this time (off-season!) of year.

 

It might be worth a phone call to get some insight from them.  Your stage lengths are probably similar.

 

http://www.penobscotislandair.net/aboutus.php

[Seth]

There's a small outfit in Maine that provides short hops to islands off the coast of Maine.  The folk that run it are very friendly and I suspect they've got plenty of time to talk this time (off-season!) of year.

 

It might be worth a phone call to get some insight from them.  Your stage lengths are probably similar.

 

http://www.penobscotislandair.net/aboutus.php

 

I'll give them a call - thank you!

[Seth]

Seth.... are you doing this to make money or just for shits and giggles?

 

Mike-

 

Unfortunatly, I'm not in this for a big payday as I do not feel avaition can be unbelevably profitable.  I'm a financial advisor and work with a lot of pilots - the first thing I tell them is that if I didn't have a passion for avaition like you, I'd tell you to sell your airplane.  However, I'm not going to do that unless you really need to, and if you do, then you should - most of the the pilots I work with are very good with budgets, but once in a while I'm working with someone who's just scraping by, but we still take care of insurance needs, and hopefully in the future, as they mature and increase income, they'll become bigger clients.

 

As for shits and giggles?   I really think there is a market here for a subscription based service - the qusetions is will it work.  Also, if I can make some money, why not?  I love aviation.  I also am a prudent financial advisor, and will keep that side of my business running forever.  Once I really put the business plan together I'll shoot it to you.

 

Take care,

 

-Seth

[Seth]

The LLC would also be heavily insured as one crash could destroy the firm hurt public perception - I'd like to be insured to the point where if this happened, I'd sell the assets, walk away, and not lose money.  If the buisness side lost money that's different, it's a business - risk invovled.  However, catasrophic risk would be mitigaged by insurance - liability, hull value, key man, you name it.

 

-Seth