Mooney versus Socata versus Beechcraft versus Cirrus

[fantom]

The 231 and 252 are both 210 horsepower airplanes ....

 

...and sweet rides they both are, but I'd have to leave either of them home, as I'm doing with my MSE, for the long, tin tube, ride up to freezing rain/snowy Pittsburgh.

[aviatoreb]

The 231 and 252 are both 210 horsepower airplanes flying different variants of the TSIO-360.  The 252 is a bit faster as the airframe is cleaner (inboard gear doors, etc.).  The fuel burns are similar.  Both are really nice planes for cruising at any altitude.  But the speed and efficiency gains by flying higher are incredible.  Also, engine management is easier on the 252.

 

I have read that the 252 is slightly more aerodynamic than the 231, but I thought the engine setup was also slightly more efficient too for all sorts of reasons due to better cooling, induction and so forth.  So does it create a few more horsepower on the same fuel?

[Parker_Woodruff]

I have read that the 252 is slightly more aerodynamic than the 231, but I thought the engine setup was also slightly more efficient too for all sorts of reasons due to better cooling, induction and so forth.  So does it create a few more horsepower on the same fuel?

 

It is a better setup, that's for sure.

[jetdriven]

I heard the 252 is the best Mooney ever built besides the 201. Just like the M20J "fixed" the airplane and pretty much encompassed all feasible improvements to the M20F, the 252 corrected all the deficiencies of the 231. 

 

Well, until the Continental TSIO-550G (M20TN)  came out.  There is no replacement for displacement, unless that displacement is both 50% larger, and turbocharged. Bring it.

[aviatoreb]

But I was speaking of efficiency - I am asking since I am just going on what I have read - I have never owned or flown in either a 231 or 252.  People say the 252 is faster but burns more fuel.  Rarely do I hear people say how they compare head to head at same fuel - say 10gph LOP at 17k I would guess the 252 is faster than a 231.

[KSMooniac]

I believe the 252 would be more efficient than the 231 due to the better induction system, but I have no data to prove it.  Both engines are rated at 210 hp, although the -SB variant in the Encore gets bumped to 220 hp.  The 252 also has some aero cleanups beyond the 231 and that should help as well, I believe.  IMO the Encore is the cream of the crop due to the useful load bump over the 252, which is mostly a 2-person + baggage traveler.  

[benpilot]

 

Well for the money, the Mooney costs less than equivalent Beechcraft or Socata and as a single guy would be a great plane for cruising California and the west coast!

I am training at Sundance Flying Club in Palo Alto and they have a Mooney 252 that I will get checked out in after my PPL.

[gjkirsch]

Assuming both the 231 and 252 are stock models, the 252 is going to be faster above 14,000 feet due to the design of the turbocharger and wastegate.  The 231 power curve begins dropping off at 14,000 feet the 252 does not begin to drop off until 24,000 feet.  Depending on the year, there are also various airframe tweaks that can add a few knots between certain year 231's and 252's.  I owned a couple of 231's over the years and test flew the 252.  I would think that 10 to 15 knots in real life would be a realistic difference in the mid teens.  Mooney claimed a 21 MPH difference.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I believe the 252 would be more efficient than the 231 due to the better induction system, but I have no data to prove it.  Both engines are rated at 210 hp, although the -SB variant in the Encore gets bumped to 220 hp.  The 252 also has some aero cleanups beyond the 231 and that should help as well, I believe.  IMO the Encore is the cream of the crop due to the useful load bump over the 252, which is mostly a 2-person + baggage traveler.  

This is correct. And the nice thing about a 252 converted to an Encore is the useful load can be 1050lbs or more...

[daveydog]

I owned two Cirrus SR22's.  One non-turbo and one G3 Turbo (loaded and very nice including TKS).  Prior to the Cirrus I also owned an F33 Bonanza and turbo normalized it and upgraded the panel.  Then I bought the acclaim after flying a buddies.  The final analysis... not even close.  The Mooney Acclaim is an amazing craft at every level and a far superior ship in my opinion.  Certainly price is a major factor, but assuming we are talking airplane to airplane comparisons...speed, efficiency, quality, re-sale and other similar comparisons, I can tell you the Mooney wins by a big margin.  If you compare similar equipped Cirrus G3 Turbo to the Acclaim... By the Acclaim.  Metal versus composite is just one reason, but there are many others.  Annuals... I can tell you they similar in cost even with retract vs. fixed gear (retract way cooler anyway).  Operating cost... similar, except Cirrus POH suggest flying LOP all the time.  I like ROP, therefore there is a 4 gph delta  Thats significant but so is the speed delta.  I wish fuel was priced like it was years ago but I still like speed.  Insurance... wash, assuming your clean and have IFR which carriers want in theses FIKI airplanes.  There is more to be said as far as feel, firmness, sound, and how well your treated in an emergency, but in the end its hands down the Acclaim for me.  

[benpilot]

 

There is only one thing that I am not crazy about Mooney- the single door so climbing across the seat would be a pain. Not a biggie considering the value of a used 201 or even 252 Mooney which is less expensive than a Beechcraft or Cirrus. My pax is 1-2 passengers so unless they are line backers it won't be an issue. For what a newer Cirrus or Beechcraft costs, I can buy two planes- a fast Mooney and a larger Cessna 182 for hauling gear like scuba tanks and mountain bikes. 

[carusoam]

It's not the single door as much as the low wing configuration. Get a Mooney for speed and a Cardinal for ease of entry...

Good luck,

-a-

[benpilot]

Both would make for a complete setup not to mention I'd have a plane to fly when the other is out for annual maintenance. A buddy of mine owns both planes.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I owned two Cirrus SR22's.  One non-turbo and one G3 Turbo (loaded and very nice including TKS).  Prior to the Cirrus I also owned an F33 Bonanza and turbo normalized it and upgraded the panel.  Then I bought the acclaim after flying a buddies.  The final analysis... not even close.  The Mooney Acclaim is an amazing craft at every level and a far superior ship in my opinion.  Certainly price is a major factor, but assuming we are talking airplane to airplane comparisons...speed, efficiency, quality, re-sale and other similar comparisons, I can tell you the Mooney wins by a big margin.  If you compare similar equipped Cirrus G3 Turbo to the Acclaim... By the Acclaim.  Metal versus composite is just one reason, but there are many others.  Annuals... I can tell you they similar in cost even with retract vs. fixed gear (retract way cooler anyway).  Operating cost... similar, except Cirrus POH suggest flying LOP all the time.  I like ROP, therefore there is a 4 gph delta  Thats significant but so is the speed delta.  I wish fuel was priced like it was years ago but I still like speed.  Insurance... wash, assuming your clean and have IFR which carriers want in theses FIKI airplanes.  There is more to be said as far as feel, firmness, sound, and how well your treated in an emergency, but in the end its hands down the Acclaim for me.  

 

+1

[benpilot]

Agree hands down I'd take a Mooney Acclaim over the Cirrus. Looking at Mooney 201J or 231 for first plane

[carusoam]

SkyNew,

What's your budget 1, 2 or 3 hundred AMU?

If your not sure, the J market is much more flexible and liquid than the others that you mentioned.

If it doesn't work out, you can sell it near what you paid for it . Just make sure you have a "good" PPI before you plunk down your hard earned cash.

If an engine overhaul will bust the bank, then the overhaul of the other engines will break it and bury it where you won't ever find it...

Factory OH for an Acclaim is $75k (approx). Includes the two turbos and two alternators...

What are you thinking so far?

Best regards,

-a-

[benpilot]

 

Budget under 200k less is better. As a first plane, I am looking at a 201J or 231. I looked at 252 and Bravo/TLS but way out of my priceline for a first plane. 

I can make the kessel run from KPAO to southern California in less than 3 hours in any Mooney so that makes me very happy. Last night a Swiss professor gave a talk on how he flew from Switzerland to Palo Alto, CA in 38 hours in his Mooney 252TSE! So if budget is more, a 252 or Bravo maybe Ovation would be fun.

[skeptic]

You can buy a very nice 252 for well under $200K.  Take a look at Controller and/or Trade-A-Plane.

[wishboneash]

 

Budget under 200k less is better. As a first plane, I am looking at a 201J or 231. I looked at 252 and Bravo/TLS but way out of my priceline for a first plane. 

I can make the kessel run from KPAO to southern California in less than 3 hours in any Mooney so that makes me very happy. Last night a Swiss professor gave a talk on how he flew from Switzerland to Palo Alto, CA in 38 hours in his Mooney 252TSE! So if budget is more, a 252 or Bravo maybe Ovation would be fun.

 

I frequently fly from KLVK to KCMA in about 1 hr 40 min in a J, so  a bit further south like southern part of Orange county could be another half hour at most (IFR). One wouldn't have to go above 10k if you choose the routing right. VFR, one can manage this at 8.5k or 9.5k.

[aaronk25]

I have a 201 now and the next plane will be a acclaim. After knowing what it takes to get every little bug corrected on a 30+ year old bird it just not worth the hassle to switch airplanes for 30kts now it is worth it for 50kts!!!!!

[benpilot]

 

Yeah the Acclaim Type S is a sweet bird if funds for that are available. Unfortunately, spending 400k plus on a plane is out of my budget :-(

[Urs_Wildermuth]

 Last night a Swiss professor gave a talk on how he flew from Switzerland to Palo Alto, CA in 38 hours in his Mooney 252TSE!

Oh, who would that be? I do know a Swiss guy with a M20E who's done that (actually did RTW as well). Well possible I know him from here (Based LSZH)

 

I know you are shopping for a newer plane but let me tell you I could not be happier with my choice of a Mooney over several other options I have had with much less money available. I picked up a lovely and well equipped M20C, had to do an engine overhaul on it but since it is extremely economic to operate while fulfilling all I need it to do. I'd love to have 64 USG rather than 52 (I know I can do that with bladders but my tanks are tight and if I would upgrade I might as well get Monroy tanks...) and I will get the LASAR cowling closure mod eventually, but right now, 140 kt with 8.5 GPH do nicely for me here in Europe, where Avgas is now usually well over $12/USG.

 

I did run an efficiency table recently on the several types and found that the M20C with it's 140 kts @ 8.5 USG plus the maintenance costs e.t.c. over here is a lot more efficient than any of the other models, particularly if you fly it regularly with 2 folks only and plenty of bags. For me,the budget indicated originally clearly for a fixed gear / fixed prop such as a PA28-180 or the likes. I flew one or two (having flown Senecas before and the TB20) and had to pay attention not to fall asleep. 110 kts @ 10 GPH simply didn't "do it" for me. I then had the chance to fly the M20C and was hooked, price was about the same as a competing PA28 or C172 so I went for it big time. I've never looked back. I live in a country with a lot of mountains up to 15 k ft and airports up to 5500 ft elevation/8000 ft DA and my "C" has performed perfectly, taking me up to 17'000 ft when I needed it (more like 19k ft DA that day) and cruising nicely at FL150 with about 19 NM/USG.

 

I would not have minded it it was an "E" due to the injected engine for IFR in particular. I even considered to upgrade when my engine needed an overhaul (which had been a planned expense as the TSOH was 2500 hrs when I bought it) but in Europe the cost of paperwork would have been prohibitive.

 

Had I the means to do so, I'd probably go for either a 201 or if I had even more, an Ovation.

 

The 201 would give me 15-20 kts more at essentially the same cost, apart from a small increase for the electric gear and flaps. It also has a better range of around 800-900 NM as opposed to my current 600-650 NM. And if I need the rear seats, I could take adults The Ovation is the "range master" of the lot and yes, 1600 NM or more range would be nice, particularly if you consider the availability of Avgas.

 

Even though I live in a very alpine country I'd only consider a turbo if I had even more money to spend. Having flown the Seneca II-IV during my training days, I know how easy it is to damage or waste a turbo or the engine and that is expensive.

 

As a first plane, you might even look at a modified "E" model (preferrably with 201 windshield and cowling mod). You'd get a lot of airplane for your money and would be able to spend the rest in the Panel YOU want, a repaint and a lot of flying.... If you fly 4 regularly, then an F or 201 would be the better choice.

 

So yes, I'd agree with all here (now there's a surprise in a Mooney forum) to go for one of our babies here rather than for another make. I am entirely grateful to Mooney for providing us with affordable high performance airplanes.

[aviatoreb]

Oh, who would that be? I do know a Swiss guy with a M20E who's done that (actually did RTW as well). Well possible I know him from here (Based LSZH)

 

I would be interested too in who is that swiss professor and where he teaches.  I was in Zurich at ETH last fall visiting a professor of mech-e and while there I was treated to the most amazing day of flying around the alps, by another guy entirely, not a professor, in a Mooney Bravo.  I will never forget that day and those sights!

[benpilot]

The Swiss professor who flew his Mooney 252 from Switzerland is Ernst Hunziker who gave a delightful video presentation at Sundance Flying club. Definitely will get checked out on the club Mooney after I receive my private pilot license! I am looking at 201, 231 and 252 as first plane.

[aviatoreb]

The Swiss professor who flew his Mooney 252 from Switzerland is Ernst Hunziker who gave a delightful video presentation at Sundance Flying club. Definitely will get checked out on the club Mooney after I receive my private pilot license! I am looking at 201, 231 and 252 as first plane.

 

Ah Bern.  I go to Zurich sometimes.

 

Here is a picture from last fall on probably the most memorable flight day in my life!

 

...how do I attach a picture in here?...  I put it on my gallery anyway:

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/33967-switzerland/