TKS installation question.......

[peevee]

13 minutes ago, kevinw said:

Someone said in an earlier post that he was quoted $38K for non-FIKI so not cheap. If I recall, the previous owner told me he spent $25K but this was done in 1998. Said he had a bad experience in icing and scared him into adding it.

missed it, thanks.

Usually the advice here is it's cheaper to buy a plane already retrofitted.

[kortopates]

You'll also find the 231 airframe is only eligible for the non-FIKI install. I've also been told that remains true even with the 262 conversion and that a 252 airframe mod'd to the Rocket makes it ineligible for FIKI. Probably worth a call to CAV to verify for anyone seriously considering.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, Piloto said:

I have tried WD-40 on the leading edge and it appears to minimize ice formation. I don't do too much ice flying so WD-40 is good enough for me. But for the cost, weight and speed loss it surely beats TKS. Give it a try.

Just curious, José--when you encounter ice how do get the WD-40 out on the wings?  Do you have one of those red straws that comes with spray cans of WD-40, only longer?

Seriously, i am happy to lug the FIKI TKS around.  I hit some ice just a month ago in warm September at 12,000 feet.   Probably I use TKS 4-5 times per year "for real".

TKS isn't a panacea.  It does relieve me of that nagging worry I'll be cited for flying into known icing conditions, and so I feel free to report ice I happen to encounter.  It does shed light ice easily.  

Two hours of juice at full flow rate is a lot of ice shedding--I hope I'd have headed for landing if unable to get out of icing after an hour or more. 

My previous plane had boots but so far I prefer TKS.  Why?  Mainly for the superior protection flow-back provides over more of the plane.  The boots required maintenance, as does TKS.   Both slow the plane a few knots compared to "clean" winged examples.  

I figure I can outrun a standard Ovation---in moderate icing conditions.

Last year the resale market FIKI TKS seems to be worth $25K-$35K on an Ovation. I bought it already installed on my Ovation.  

To each his own: I wouldn't own a transportation aircraft without FIKI at this point in my aviation life. 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

[peevee]

Just now, Jerry 5TJ said:

Just curious, José--when you encounter ice how do get the WD-40 out on the wings?  Do you have one of those red straws that comes with spray cans of WD-40, only longer?

Seriously, i am happy to lug the FIKI TKS around.  I hit some ice just a month ago in warm September at 12,000 feet.   Probably I use TKS 4-5 times per year "for real".

TKS isn't a panacea.  It does relieve me of that nagging worry I'll be cited for flying into known icing conditions, and so I feel free to report ice I happen to encounter.  It does shed light ice easily.  

Two hours of juice at full flow rate is a lot of ice shedding--I hope I'd have headed for landing if unable to get out of icing after an hour or more. 

My previous plane had boots but so far I prefer TKS.  Why?  Mainly for the superior protection flow-back provides over more of the plane.  The boots required maintenance, as does TKS.   Both slow the plane a few knots compared to "clean" winged examples.  

I figure I can outrun a standard Ovation---in moderate icing conditions.

Last year the resale market FIKI TKS seems to be worth $25K-$35K on an Ovation. I bought it already installed on my Ovation.  

To each his own: I wouldn't own a transportation aircraft without FIKI at this point in my aviation life. 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

He just reaches through the pee hole in the floor and sprays it on in flight I bet. 

[thinwing]

I've used tks on my last two trips...only need it for brief ,less than 1 gal at a time.when I first bought my fiki bravo I would fill it up ...all 6 gal and that would last two seasons...no need...I keep 2/3 gals in the winter and that has worked out fine.Only one real  serious icing encounter 5 years ago...and I needed all the fluid I had...if no tks...my best option would be a 180 as I was over very high >13k terrain and would have declared an emergency

[Bravoman]

I picked up some light rime  on our trip up north recently. It scares the hell out of me. I'm  actually thinking about retrofitting my plane. Does anybody have information on  which outfit does the best aftermarket job, cost, time to get it done, etc.?

 

Thanks, Frank

[jetdriven]

The pricing has gotten crazy lately.  An A36 is like 60K now.  Mooney probably is similar 

[Piloto]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Just curious, José--when you encounter ice how do get the WD-40 out on the wings?  Do you have one of those red straws that comes with spray cans of WD-40, only longer?

Seriously, i am happy to lug the FIKI TKS around.  I hit some ice just a month ago in warm September at 12,000 feet.   Probably I use TKS 4-5 times per year "for real".

TKS isn't a panacea.  It does relieve me of that nagging worry I'll be cited for flying into known icing conditions, and so I feel free to report ice I happen to encounter.  It does shed light ice easily.  

Two hours of juice at full flow rate is a lot of ice shedding--I hope I'd have headed for landing if unable to get out of icing after an hour or more. 

My previous plane had boots but so far I prefer TKS.  Why?  Mainly for the superior protection flow-back provides over more of the plane.  The boots required maintenance, as does TKS.   Both slow the plane a few knots compared to "clean" winged examples.  

I figure I can outrun a standard Ovation---in moderate icing conditions.

Last year the resale market FIKI TKS seems to be worth $25K-$35K on an Ovation. I bought it already installed on my Ovation.  

To each his own: I wouldn't own a transportation aircraft without FIKI at this point in my aviation life. 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

I just spray it on the wing leading edge just before engine start. And only when flying into freezing temperatures. Living in Florida there is no need for de-icing. After flying for fours I did notice the leading edge still slippery at the touch. My son that lives in Pittsburgh use it on his car to avoid door lock freezing, on the door seals and windshield.

José

[bradp]

TKS would be a nice "out" in the non FIKI setup and worth the loss of a few it's if it made a few additional trips per year possible (i.e. Going through a layer without busting the "law").  Turbo - maybe two of em- would be my ideal FIKI solution. 

If I was going to stay in Pittsburgh for any additional time, I would sell my plane and go for some sort of a FIKI bird.  The combination of lake effect clouds and temps makes for 5 months of the year where cross country flying is marginal.   There's a reason why every Air Safety Institute video about icing is either in the PAC NW or references the Altoona VOR.  

[Cruiser]

Living in the midwest, you will have a much lower level of apprehension about winter flying. 

I flew today with the cloud bases at 3800 feet and all the departing traffic was asking about icing in the clouds, it was +5C !

Ice is nothing to mess with anywhere but particularly up here in the Midwest.

[M016576]

Fiki vs non-fiki system differences:

heated fuel tank vents.

a backup primary pump.

no differences in coverage, output or tank size.  Amazing how much that second pump and heated fuel tank vents cost.... what is it, 22K more for the Fiki install?  That's probably why they don't offer the non-fiki install any longer on mooneys.... or was that just a rumor?

Edited October 13, 2016 by M016576

[thinwing]

Still a hell of a lot better than no tks at all...

[glenn reynolds]

I fly an ovation with TKS fitted.  Most of my trips are two persons so an additional five gallon can in the back puts us on a good trim for cruise (only for long trips like my current trip to east coast).  My wife simply won't fly with out tks as we fly over the sierra where the minimum IFR altitude is 14k,  We almost always have a forecast for icing in the winter.  Unless head winds are an issue, I'll file for 20k feet, knowing I can always come down but climbing with ice is an unknown so why even talk about it.  our last flight to Vancouver we had moderate icing forecast, we were in heavy precipitation (yellow on the xm weather), but we were at 20,000 feet and the temp was minus 29c.  We had no ice building on the plane (i did prime the system, which takes about 15 minutes at normal flow).  I wouldn't consider putting myself in that position if I didn't have TKS.  We arrived at our destination where the freezing level was 5,000 feet, and the ceiling was 2,000 feet with an RNAV approach that went to 250 feet agl.  My wife was in charge of the need for TKS (she watches the wing) while I shot the approach and the TKS was never activated.  You could say that since we didn't actually use the TKS system, we didn't need it BUT, there is NO way I would make that flight with out TKS.  So we flew from San Francisco to Vancouver and return all in IFR conditions in the late fall/early winter and came home with the same six gallons of TKS fluid we left with.  I feel this is an excellent tool for winter operations.  

[THill182]

10 hours ago, glenn reynolds said:

I fly an ovation with TKS fitted.  ....  

Same here. I had a non-FIKI system retrofitted about 8 years or so ago. I lost about 6 kts in speed. Only trouble I had so far was some electrical problem in the panel where a cable shortened out.

The reason I spent the (considerable amount of money): The only time I was ever scared while flying was in non-predicted icing with no way out over the mountains. I resolved to (1) set the bar a lot higher for my go/no-go decision, and (2) get TKS as plan B.

I used to fly a lot for business, mostly around the mid-west. It has happened a few times that I needed to descend through an icing layer on an approach, or "linger" there for a few minutes. The system really works well. I could see the ice on the unprotected surfaces (the wing-lights), but the rest of the plane was clean. I would say, it takes the "pucker-factor" out of flying through an ice layer.

Having said all that: Now I fly mostly on personal trips, and my risk threshold is very different. In general, it is my opinion that regardless of Non/FIKI, I would never want to motor around in predicted icing in a non-turbo single engine airplane. Maybe a turbo is a game-changer (lots of people say so) since you can outclimb the clouds more often.

In summary: I am glad I have the system, as just another Plan B and way-out, should I find myself in icing, a situation I promised myself I will try to avoid any way I can....

 

[M016576]

2 hours ago, THill182 said:

Same here. I had a non-FIKI system retrofitted about 8 years or so ago. I lost about 6 kts in speed. Only trouble I had so far was some electrical problem in the panel where a cable shortened out.

The reason I spent the (considerable amount of money): The only time I was ever scared while flying was in non-predicted icing with no way out over the mountains. I resolved to (1) set the bar a lot higher for my go/no-go decision, and (2) get TKS as plan B.

I used to fly a lot for business, mostly around the mid-west. It has happened a few times that I needed to descend through an icing layer on an approach, or "linger" there for a few minutes. The system really works well. I could see the ice on the unprotected surfaces (the wing-lights), but the rest of the plane was clean. I would say, it takes the "pucker-factor" out of flying through an ice layer.

Having said all that: Now I fly mostly on personal trips, and my risk threshold is very different. In general, it is my opinion that regardless of Non/FIKI, I would never want to motor around in predicted icing in a non-turbo single engine airplane. Maybe a turbo is a game-changer (lots of people say so) since you can outclimb the clouds more often.

In summary: I am glad I have the system, as just another Plan B and way-out, should I find myself in icing, a situation I promised myself I will try to avoid any way I can....

 

I think the whole point of the turbo charger isn't to allow motoring around in the icing, but to ensure you can get through them.  

I agree- Fiki or not, icing is not a place to "hang out" in.

[thinwing]

On 11/25/2016 at 7:18 PM, glenn reynolds said:

I fly an ovation with TKS fitted.  Most of my trips are two persons so an additional five gallon can in the back puts us on a good trim for cruise (only for long trips like my current trip to east coast).  My wife simply won't fly with out tks as we fly over the sierra where the minimum IFR altitude is 14k,  We almost always have a forecast for icing in the winter.  Unless head winds are an issue, I'll file for 20k feet, knowing I can always come down but climbing with ice is an unknown so why even talk about it.  our last flight to Vancouver we had moderate icing forecast, we were in heavy precipitation (yellow on the xm weather), but we were at 20,000 feet and the temp was minus 29c.  We had no ice building on the plane (i did prime the system, which takes about 15 minutes at normal flow).  I wouldn't consider putting myself in that position if I didn't have TKS.  We arrived at our destination where the freezing level was 5,000 feet, and the ceiling was 2,000 feet with an RNAV approach that went to 250 feet agl.  My wife was in charge of the need for TKS (she watches the wing) while I shot the approach and the TKS was never activated.  You could say that since we didn't actually use the TKS system, we didn't need it BUT, there is NO way I would make that flight with out TKS.  So we flew from San Francisco to Vancouver and return all in IFR conditions in the late fall/early winter and came home with the same six gallons of TKS fluid we left with.  I feel this is an excellent tool for winter operations.  

I kinda did a double take When you mentioned filing for 20 in a non turbo ....so that's what 10 in mp at 20 k.I would be interested in your cruise / climb # s at 20 k

[M016576]

23 hours ago, thinwing said:

I kinda did a double take When you mentioned filing for 20 in a non turbo ....so that's what 10 in mp at 20 k.I would be interested in your cruise / climb # s at 20 k

Service ceiling on the M20R is 20,000'.

so on a standard day, by definition, a M20R should be able to climb at 100fpm.  To me that implies that the IAS at 20K is at least 100kts.  So that would be about 160KTAS... maybe a little faster.

ive got a picture somewhere of my missile (300HP instead of 280) at 17K.  15.6", IAS is 122.  I think I could have got her up to FL210... but it would have taken a while.

Edit- added photo

 

Second edit: got to love a mooney- can hit the FL's without a turbo charger.

Edited November 29, 2016 by M016576

[thinwing]

14 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Service ceiling on the M20R is 20,000'.

so on a standard day, by definition, a M20R should be able to climb at 100fpm.  To me that implies that the IAS at 20K is at least 100kts.  So that would be about 160KTAS... maybe a little faster.

ive got a picture somewhere of my missile (300HP instead of 280) at 17K.  15.6", IAS is 122.  I think I could have got her up to FL210... but it would have taken a while.

Edit- added photo

 

Second edit: got to love a mooney- can hit the FL's without a turbo charger.

I used to take a nonturbo 600 hp Baron to flight levels but after 16 k it took forever....I expect same with 280 hp ovation...it will get there eventually

[Jerry 5TJ]

I've had my (280 hp, 3 blade prop) Ovation to 16,000.  The last few thousand feet at slow climb of about 300-400 fpm on near standard ISA day as I recall.   This is at 105 KIAS or about 135 true.  

POH shows rate of climb tapers to near nothing at 20,000 at gross.  At 2900 pounds, a reasonable top-of-climb weight, there's 100 FPM at FL200.  

This chart is for the original 2 blade propeller. 

[aaronk25]

Service ceiling on the M20R is 20,000'.

so on a standard day, by definition, a M20R should be able to climb at 100fpm.  To me that implies that the IAS at 20K is at least 100kts.  So that would be about 160KTAS... maybe a little faster.

ive got a picture somewhere of my missile (300HP instead of 280) at 17K.  15.6", IAS is 122.  I think I could have got her up to FL210... but it would have taken a while.

Edit- added photo

 

Second edit: got to love a mooney- can hit the FL's without a turbo charger.

A 201 with powerflow can hit the flight levels with 450lbs pax bags and 2/3 fuel!

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[thinwing]

Cyl and oil temps barely out of the green

[glenn reynolds]

I don't want to high jack a TKS thread with an altitude conversation, but do note that the temps were minus 29 C and there was NO other traffic so control was fine with our "slow climb to flight level 20" request.  Since that flight, I just returned from Boston and almost same situation: significant blizzard on the ground at western Wyoming.  Filed for 18,000 west but due to low temperatures, control could only give me FL 22 or 16,000 but in this case the weather tops were 14,000 so I stopped my climb at 16,000.  This three hour flight from wyoming to San Francisco was through at least two hours of icing from surface to 18,000 feet but again didn't need the TKS system for that leg.  

 

the whole Thanksgiving Holiday trip took me from San Francisco to phoenix, to Texas to Florida with much of the that route requiring that I keep the TKS system primed as the icing came and went.  One Gallon TKS used.  the next Flight from Florida to Boston (six hours) had icing forecast for new england, but I only primed.  Next leg from Boston to San Francisco was much worse weather with lower icing, fifty knot headwinds which significantly increased my travel times and limited my ability to climb higher, so i used three gallons of TKS fluid.  As I was carrying a five gallon drum of refill TKS fluid in the baggage compartment, the ships TKS tank was always full and I had no hesitation about turning it on.  On longer trips like this one, the priming can add up as the wings loose prime thus when entering an area of icing I like to prime which consumes fluid.