Engine Analyzers

[Jerry]

I am currently having my engine overhauled and am also interested in installing an engine analyzer.  I have been looking at the data on both the JPI EDM 700 and 800.  I know there are several additional functions on the 800 than the 700 but it all comes at a price. 

Looking for some information from anyone that has either of these installed in their Mooney.  Mine is a 1978 M20J 201.

Also, any information on the 730 or 830 models.

Thanks,

Jerry  

[Cruiser]

i would love to have the 830. I have a 700 it does everything except %HP. They are a must have if you want to manage an engine properly.

[GeorgePerry]

THe EDM 700 with Fuel Flow option does just about everything you could possibly want.  The prices for the 700 are very reasonable right now since the new 730/830 are on the market.  If AMU's are no problem get the 730.

[Magnum]

When I bought my J the first thing I installed was a EDM 800. Makes power setting really easy because it calulates % HP depending on MP, RPM, OAT, and FF (LOP/ROP). With all the sensors you get the full picture and you can analyze trends. 

I don't want to fly without it!

Right now I am upgrading to a EDM830. One screen with all the important data on it, no more switching through the sensors. The good thing with the x30 series: It is the same unit. You can start with a EDM730 and upgrade to a 830 later by adding the required sensors. That is not possible with the EDM700, you have to send it back to the factory to upgrade.

If you have factory fuelflow you won't need the FF option from JPI.

 

I'll upload some pics in my gallery.

Update: with the x30 series you'll get USB data download and a 5 times bigger data storage fo a more accurate trend monitoring (2s intervall).

 

[flight2000]

I do want to add either the 730 or 830 to mine in the near future.  Does this allow the old tach and MP gauges to be replaced?  I saw it was TSO and STC approved, but haven't found the specific information on what that means.

Brian

[Magnum]

IMHO the 730/830 cannot be used as primary.

[carusoam]

I have the 700 in its most basic form.  It collects EGT and CHT data and helps lean ROP or LOP.  factory FF is not connected to the 700.

Down loaded data the other day (requires bringing laptop to the plane with wire provided by JPI).  Used latest version of EZTrends from JPI.  Works well.  I think I would prefer 830 with all sensors and USB.  It would be nice to have Fuel required and an alarm if GPS final destination is not in the cards.  I believe the new GPSs and JPI systems integrate well together.   (Santa, if you would be so kind, I would also like this installed in a NEW ovation)

For now, I have all my data available, but still have to make BHP and fuel calculations the old fashioned way.  The laptop still goes to the airport to update the oldish KLN 90B data base.

700 gets you what you need. 830 gets you what you need in style.  More value if it could replace large old mechanical indicators.

 

[jlunseth]

I believe Magnum is correct, but you should contact JPI to make sure.  An instrument can be STC'd, but still not STC'd as primary, which means that the original factory gauge must remain in order for the aircraft to be within its type certificate.  I learned this the hard way, bought a plane that had the TIT gauge removed and a 700 installed.  The 700 is not STC'd as primary for anything, and the factory gauge was gone.  Had to buy a 711, which is STC'd as primary, but you have to pay a price to get particular functions made primary.  If you look at the jpitech website, I think you will see that only the 711 and the 930 have primary STC's.  I ultimately wound up purchasing the 930, which is primary for just about every engine instrument you can think of.  To be primary, however, required the addition of a "RAD" which is a back up Remote Alarm Display, that will work to tell the pilot that a certain function is out of spec even if the 930 itself goes down.

Look at this page, you will see what I am talking about:  http://www.jpitech.com/pilotguide.php

JPI may be able to make the 730/830 primary for a particular function, I don't know, you should contact them, I found them very helpful.

[Immelman]

I put a 700 with fuel flow into my E model and am very satisfied with it. The prices are quite reasonable. I would budget 10-20 hours labor for install. I think my A&P charged me 8 hours, but I did a lot of the work.

If I were doing it over again and had some extra money burning a hole in my pocket, the 730 (or 830) are certainly tempting; they have done some nice display work.

 

 

[KSMooniac]

I'm a happy -700 user with their fuel flow system integrated to the EDM and my GPS.  I'll never own a plane without this functionality!  I've toyed with the idea of sending my unit back to turn it into a -730, but at this point it is not worth the money.  I can download the data with their cable, so I don't need the USB interface but it would certainly make it easier.  If for some reason my -700 developed a problem and needed to go back to the factory, then I might choose to upgrade.

I can see upgrading my entire panel in the future with a PFD, and at that point I would likely opt for a -930 (or similar competitor) and ditch all of my old engine instruments.  That would call for a new custom panel of course, and who knows what else while it is all apart!  The posts above are correct in that the -7x0/8x0 cannot officially replace your OEM instruments...only the bigger -930 can do that I believe.

IMO, the HP/% Power functionality on the -800/830 is not worth the extra price.  I fly LOP nearly 100% of the time, and I know that my % power = fuel flow * 14.9 so I don't need to pay extra for that calculation.  My recommendation would be to take that additional money and put it towards some very, very good education here:  www.advancedpilot.com so you'll learn the hows and whys of engine management and make that new engine operate in the best way possible.  Regardless of which monitor you choose, you are making a wise choice to install one!  I cannot recommend highly enough the education that the APS folks provide to maximize the efficiency and longevity of a piston engine.

[Magnum]

You are right, you don't need the %HP, but it is very convenient. When taking off you see how much power the engine really makes and don't have to start calculating with MP and OAT. Esp. when flying ROP it makes things easier.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jlunseth

  An instrument can be STC'd, but still not STC'd as primary, which means that the original factory gauge must remain in order for the aircraft to be within its type certificate.

I asked the EDM factory rep this question a few months ago and the 730/830 DO NOT replace the factory MP/RPM guage.  I was bumbed...

[Jerry]

Thanks for all  of the responses.  I  got  a lot of good information from your experinece.  I did talk to JPI and realize  that I cant replace the original gages without going to the 930 so I think I have now narrowed it down to  either the 730 or 830.  Hopefully when all of the costs are in for the overhaul and annual ther will be enough money left to go to the 830.  Either way, I will look at APS for their education information.

Thanks again for your input.

Jerry

[Magnum]

Just checked some prices (for 4 cyl):

The EDM 700 without FF costs 1.150, the EDM 730 1.675, so that's 550,- more.

If you already have FF installed (Shadon, Hoskins, Rnav or Alcor; EI should work, too) you can use the existing transducer and wire the EDM in parallel. Then you will have FF on both. To "upgrade" the 730 to a 830 you'll need additional OAT, MP and RPM. The sensors cost 830,- from JPI, so it is 2.505 total (maybe you'll get them a bit cheaper from a retailer). For comparison: The EDM 800 costs 2.320 (including FF, you don't get it without FF), the EDM 830 is 3.190,- but has additional Oil Temp and Oil Pressure (and FF).

IMHO the best way is to get a EDM730 and upgrade it, if needed. As I mentioned in another thread I upgraded my EDM800 to a 830. I just bought a 730, pluged in all the 800 sensors and it is a 830 now (fortunately the x00 series have the same connectors like the x30 series).

 

[231Pilot]

I have been using the 700 for 3 years.  It is perhaps the most useful/valuable addition I have made to the aircraft since I bought it.  It is even more useful/valuable since I installed GAMIs last year.

[M016576]

The first thing I installed at annual after I bought my '80 M20J last year was a JPI EDM-830.  I initially wanted to go with the 730, but as I started adding options, the guys at LASAR said it'd work out to about the same price to just get the 830 w/ff.  Might as well get all the add-ons.  in my opinion you can't put a price on a thorough engine monitor (this comes from years of military flying.. I can fly the plane in any condition, just so long as the info I'm getting is accurate and thorough). 

The 830 is a solid piece of gear.  The ROP and LOP functions are nice, the user interface is a little lacking (two non-labeled buttons.. at least they are different colors), but the monitor functions are very powerful.  The unit will display any out of limit parameters in big, red, blinking letters at the bottom of the display.  This includes a "shock cooling" function, which senses when the CHT's are decreasing too quickly.  All your standard other info is included as well.  I had the fuel flow function installed, and wouldn't want to fly without it now.  Again, the user interface is a bit clunky when trying to add fuel in increments less than a full tank, but it is do-able.  The USB download feature is more of a gimmick for me right now (although I have been doing it faithfully), and I only really find myself checking the engine stats after a flight when I am longing to be back up in the air.  If I had some sort of an issue with the motor, though, I'm sure I'd be scouring the data!  The manual comes with a list of possible causes for engine "abnormalities" on the gauge which I copied and cut out for my kneeboard.  All in all, you can't put a price on a solid understanding of what's going on under the hood, and I'm VERY pleased with the EDM-830... if I ever get another aircraft, that will be the first thing I install.

                                         -Job

                                          1980 M20J

[Kwixdraw]

Has anyone taken the plunge and gone for the EDM 930 as primary. I strongly considering it since there is so much to do on my resto.

[hansel]

I think our Craig (forum Administrator "Mooniac58") installed one on his J. You may want to send him a PM.

[Gone]

One of the other options, and I think they advertise it as being allowed in our aircraft as Primary, is the Xerion Auracle.  Anyone know if that is true or not?

[jlunseth]

Quote: Kwixdraw

Has anyone taken the plunge and gone for the EDM 930 as primary. I strongly considering it since there is so much to do on my resto.

[Earl]

I have a EDM-730 ordered and plan to have it installed in the next 2-3 weeks.  I am getting all the bells and whistles added and here's a piece of advice I got from someone here.  If you have a factory-installed  fuel flow meter you can wire it up to the 730 which will present the data in the screen.  Supposed to only take 30 minutes to wire up to the 730.

I can't wait to get it installed and am told I won't want to fly without one again.

[jlunseth]

Quote: ehscott

I have a EDM-730 ordered and plan to have it installed in the next 2-3 weeks.  I am getting all the bells and whistles added and here's a piece of advice I got from someone here.  If you have a factory-installed  fuel flow meter you can wire it up to the 730 which will present the data in the screen.  Supposed to only take 30 minutes to wire up to the 730.

I can't wait to get it installed and am told I won't want to fly without one again.

[Jeff_S]

Okay, slightly tangential to the topic but I'm wondering if anyone can give me quick pointers on how to get the most out of my 700 w/FF.  I have poured over the manual (very tiny print!) numerous times and it has about the worst user interface I have ever seen. But I'm sure once I get the hange of it I'll find it quite nice.

Can anybody give me the Cliff's notes, or point me to something of this nature? Tips like when to use Percentage vs. Normalize view, etc?

[jlunseth]

Maybe I didn't use all the functions of the 700, but I found it really simple.  I left it on Normalize, and auto so the unit constantly cycled through the various parameters and cylinders.  My thinking on "Normalize" was that I wanted to know actual temps, not percentages, because there is such a thing as running too cool as well as too hot, and I found it easier to figure that out if I saw actual temps.  There was a function with the Lean Find that I never really figured out.  Once it found peak, it would sometimes display the difference in degrees from peak for leaning purposes.  So if you were trying to lean to 125 ROP it would show how close you were to that figure, rather than displaying the actual peak EGT and making you do the mental math.  (Let's see, peak was 1483 so I need to be at ?????).  I liked that feature but it did not come on all the time, and I never spent the time to figure out what you had to do to make it so. 

[Earl]

Quote: jlunseth

 Yes, that's true you can wire the 730 to existing flow meters as I understand it.  However, just remember that with the 730, if you do that, you can't unwire the factory gauge and/or remove it from the plane unless it is not on the type certificate.  You wind up with two flow gauges, which is not a bad thing. 

 

Just so I understand I was under the impression that you don't really have two fuel flow meters.  You are simply presenting the data from the existing fuel flow meter on the 730.  I wasn't planning on removing the old display for the reason you discussed related to the type certificate.  In my plane the fuel flow display is off to the far right and not user friendly.  The 730 is going to be in a much better place to see what is going on.  I would assume that I will still need to use the reset buttons on my original fuel flow device but it would be nice if it could be reset from the 730.  Somehow I doubt it but you never know.