Mooney shopping, engine maintenance intervals

[IndyTim]

Hi folks,

Great site. I'm new here, and new to flying as well. New to flying from the left seat, that is, as I've been in planes as a passenger virtually my whole life. It's wonderful to finally realize a long-held dream of getting my ppl.

I'll beginning the search for a plane and obviously I'm interested in Mooneys. I'll be using the plane to commute 1000 miles round-trip 2-4 times per month, in addition to doing some trips with the wife. Commuting to the Milwaukee area, mostly, plus my wife and I do various tandem rallies and haul in our bike, as well as trips to Santa Fe, Sedona, Colorado Springs, etc. (The bike breaks down, goes in a case, weighs 45 lbs w/ case, not worried about whether it will fit.) I'm looking for speed, efficiency, good performance at altitude, and reasonable cost of ownership. Reasonable for planes, I mean.

I'm not sure I fully understand the engine lifecycle, particularly w/r/t Mooney 231s and was hoping someone could help clear things up.

Questions -

1. It looks like most Mooney engines have a Mfr TBO of 1700 or 1800 hours. Yet I frequently see planes advertised with, say, 1200 TSOH, but also with a more recent top overhaul. Is it typical that a 231 will need the top end overhauled prior to major or is the frequency misrepresented in planes that happen to be for sale?

2. I note that a key improvement from 231 to 252 is the MB engine and improved cowling. While the 252 appeals, I don't think I can get the 252 I'd want for my budget of $120k or so. Does getting a well-equipped 231 and then planning for an eventual conversion to -MB and 252 cowling when the engine is run out sound like a good idea? Does anyone have an estimated price of that conversion?

3. Can an engine be majored more than once? If I get a plane with 1600 hours, then do a major on it and fly it for another 1800 hours, is that engine done? I know a lot depends upon condition, but just wondering if there are engines that get overhauled more than once, or if you should just assume you'll go to a reman or new engine.

Gonna try to sneak in 1 more question:

4. Are there any special longevity/reliability issues for Rocket 305s vs 231s?

[carusoam]

(1) get an issue of trade-a-plane the engine over haulers and re-manufacturers are in there and can give you prices with good details...

(2) search this site for discussions on overhauls and tops specifically for turbocharged models. Apparently if you are knowledgable, have good engine instrumentation and maintain self control, you can get to TBO.

It appears that there are some people that prefer to fly faster at the cost of a few cylinders before TBO. TBO is often 2000hrs for most Mooney engines. A cylinder overhaul can be in the $1-2k, from my casual research.

(3) if you use flying as part of your business the extra speed, functionallity and flexibillity afforded by turbocharging makes sense. Ice protection is something to consider as well. Start reading about oxygen systems as well (oxygen masks, flow meters, oxymeters etc.)

(4) consider factory re-manufactured engines. These are essentially brand new engines with some money saving used parts. The important part is they get a zero time log book as if they were brand new.

(5) all of this is icing on the cake, an instrument rating and a lot of experience will be important to you as well.

This is an opinion piece from an east coast flyer who has studied this same topic a few times in the last 15 years. The result each time was selecting a large Normally Aspirated engine.

Good luck with your search. Welcome to MooneySpace...

Best regards,

-a-

[AcclaimML]

Congratulations Tim on your PPL. Welcome to the site, I am new to this site as well and I can tell you there is a great wealth of info here, and folks are very congenial.

How many hours do you have? Reason that I ask is Mooneys do take a bit more flying skill than other craft I've flown. (Diamond DA40, Piper Saratoga) I just broke the 350 hour mark so I am not that far from where you are now. So please take the advice as precautionary and not to turn you away from Mooney, but as a new pilot its easy to get behind the plane---especially a swift one like all Mooneys. Adding to your work load only can make this easier to happen. Operating Turbo'ed engines does increase your work load a bit in that if you want to run them right and have them last you kinda need to plane ahead in managing the heat and power of the engine over a NA one. This is true for any aircraft. Starting out in the diamond with a IO 360 Normally aspirated allowed me to concentrate more on flying and less on engine management. The 360 Lycs are pretty much bullet proof and are great for a new pilot and in a Mooney give you good speed and lower fuel burn. So you may want to look at a 201 and gain some experience before going up to the turbo. Look at insurance for the planes your interested for you--based on your hours. That can be a deal breaker in itself for a low time pilot.

As for major overhaul--I think it can be done more than once--but I wouldn't.

as for the 252, my hanger neighbor has one and loves it.

Good luck in your search, try to fly as many different planes as you can to get a feel for what suits you--and try to avoid the temptation of biting off more than you can chew.

Mike

[Parker_Woodruff]

Good luck in your search, try to fly as many different planes as you can to get a feel for what suits you--and try to avoid the temptation of biting off more than you can chew.

Mike

To the OP:

Don't be afraid of a Mooney. Don't be overconfident either at 350 hours. Find a CFI who knows Mooneys (and the model you are buying, in particular) and spend some serious time with him/her.

Also, it's not really practical to try to convert a 231 to a 252. It would take some serious $ and likely a field approval.

For $120,000, you can buy a really nice 231.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1982-MOONEY-M20K-231/1255305.htm

[Marauder]

All good advice. Don't under estimate the cost per hour portion solely on the engine. There are a number of operating costs which can drive the cost up the cost of ownership significantly. Since I bought my F model in 1991, I have been keeping records for everything from direct operating costs to the reserves needed for the future. A major unexpected expense can be a setback but so can be operating costs outside of your budget.

I would get input from those who own a plane you are considering. Direct experience of true operating costs can help with your decision. Also, don't overlook the avionics. For the type of mission you are looking to perform, your instrument ticket is the next logic step. By understanding these, you can also avoid getting caught in upgrading tired avionics.

Hope this helps.

[Osprey]

I have flown M20J's and K's many times. I also maintained over a dozen Mooneys from the 201 to the 252.

Question #1 It is common for a turbocharged engine to receive a top overhaul during its TBO period. This is due primarily to operation technique and calendar time on the engine. If the aircraft is flown often and operated carefully it may be possible to go the entire TBO period with out a top. My experience is that a TOP is the rule rather that the exception. If I had my choice I would ether buy an aircraft with a new factory remanufactured engine, or one with a run-out engine. In both cases, enginewise, you are getting what you paid for.

Question #2 I would never buy an aircraft with the intention of making it something else unless money was not an object.

Question #3 An engine can be overhauled numerous times, but each time it will likely cost more due to the fact more will have to be replaced. I always would recommend new cylinders on Turbocharged engines. Most times people would opt for factory remanufactured engines. It is possible to buy a ship with a 1600 hr engine and have it overhauled. Remember this fact. Calendar time on an engine is just as important as operating time in considering its value.

Question #4 I know nothing about the Rocket 305.

I would question buying a Mooney 231 with the amount of experience you have. Obviously I have no Idea how proficient you are or how good your judgement is. If I were you I would buy a Cessna 182 class aircraft and gain some experience. A 231 is a slippery machine. Speed brakes would help. Imagine flying over the Cascade Mountains, dropping down and slowing down in IFR conditions with turbulence.

Buying a plane close to where you live is a big plus as it can be an ordeal.

Have the plane inspected by someone who ideally has no connection to its owner and is well familiar with the type of aircraft. An annual inspection is best, if not an annual, stay at the side of the inspector and have him show you the problems he finds, you will learn a lot. You can tell him when you are satisfied you have seen enough. You will save whatever the mechanic costs.

Remember this information is worth what you paid for it.

[IndyTim]

All -- I really appreciate the thoughtful feedback. I'm still in the process of sorting through all available information.

As far as my training, I'm working with my CFI-II instructor to move on to IFR as soon as possible. He has also suggested I work towards a commercial rating and as it stands right now I plan to do that. It would help in my extensive business travel.

The immediate focus is on what is essentially a "commuter plane". I.e. Get me various destinations up to 500 or 600 miles away efficiently. And for the next 2-3 years and 300-400 hours of flying, also fly with my wife to various destinations. I have other flying-related goals, but they will wait while I gain experience.

I have a lot of respect for the comments about operating a slippery plane like a Mooney, and do plan to get the right training and to keep the flight demands well within my personal limits. So thanks for those thoughts. It's a process...

As far as plane selection, cost of ownership, efficiency, and speed are the priorities. Based on comments here and other sources, I'm beginning to think that a well-equipped M20J is going to be the best plane for my needs for the next 2-3 years. 4 cylinders rather than 6, and no turbo to worry about. 95% of my flight time will be alone, on routes from SW Missouri to Milwaukee, Florida, and San Antonio, TX.

[Z W]

There are many long threads about turbo vs. non-turbo, but I can give some area-specific advice for you. I fly in about the same areas as you (I did countless practice approaches at Springfield for my IFR), and always appreciate the turbo. Going north to Milwaukee, you will want to climb over ice or stratus layers that are common in the fall/winter. Going southwest to Texas, you will want to climb over turbulence that always seems to be there in the summer up to about 10k feet. Going southeast to Florida, you will want to be at 15k feet so you can visually dodge the thunderstorm cells that are usually between here and there at any given time.

I've done the flights in a non-turbo'd Mooney enough times to really appreciate the turbo. I thought my wife was going to jump out of the plane one day when at 12k feet over Oklahoma and Texas I could not get us over the moderate turbulence in the naturally-aspirated plane.

With a turbo, an oxygen bottle, and an instrument rating, you will be able to get where you need to go most days in comfort, icing conditions and squall line thunderstorms excepted. If you're spending 120k you can afford all of those things, and I'd tell you to get them in a nice K-model 231, Rocket, or 252.

You will need some transition training, but that's true of any Mooney. Just always stay ahead of the plane, and if you get behind, go around.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Zane has good advice as to why to get a turbocharged aircraft. Also, while I highly recommend getting a commercial certificate, you do not need one to fly on your business travel.