Richard Allen Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 My poh section V page 12 shows stall speeds vs angle of bank at gross weight. at 0 degrees bank kcas is 59. would I be wrong to assume this aircraft would qualify under mosaic rules as light sport? can other 201 owners check their POH to verify?
1980Mooney Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 12 hours ago, Richard Allen said: My poh section V page 12 shows stall speeds vs angle of bank at gross weight. at 0 degrees bank kcas is 59. would I be wrong to assume this aircraft would qualify under mosaic rules as light sport? can other 201 owners check their POH to verify? Are you asking if it qualifies to be flown by a Light Sport Pilot? Or are you asking if it could qualify to be certified as a Light Sport Aircraft if it were built new again? 1
201Steve Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 58 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: Or are you asking if it could qualify to be certified as a Light Sport Aircraft if it were built new again? It could definitely be very slightly modified to mfg as LS, at minimum
toto Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 AOPA has a decent page on MOSAIC. Sport Pilots can fly an aircraft with a Vs1 of 59kcas. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2025/august/14/mosaic-explained-faq FAA final rule here: https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/MOSAIC_Final_Rule_Issuance.pdf Earlier MS thread covered a lot of ground: https://mooneyspace.com/topic/51971-mosaic-mooneys/ I’d like to see a full list of eligible aircraft - in particular, I’m interested to know whether my J qualifies, since the original type cert was 59kcas but the 2900# MGW AFMS is higher. I *think* the original value applies, but idk.
kortopates Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 I’d like to see a full list of eligible aircraft - in particular, I’m interested to know whether my J qualifies, since the original type cert was 59kcas but the 2900# MGW AFMS is higher. I *think* the original value applies, but idk. Seems if you want the original 2740 MGW to apply, you would have to undo the mods done in accordance with the Mooney SB including going back to the earlier Vspeeds on the IAS and backing out the AFMS changes.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
midlifeflyer Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 Unless your J and been modified in some what to change the POH numbers, the answer whether it may be flown exercising sport privileges is yes. I just did a MOSAIC presentation this morning where I gave some aircraft examples. I didn't include any of the Mooneys, but the one that got a lot of surprised looks was a V35 Bonanza. 2
midlifeflyer Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 52 minutes ago, kortopates said: Seems if you want the original 2740 MGW to apply, you would have to undo the mods done in accordance with the Mooney SB including going back to the earlier Vspeeds on the IAS and backing out the AFMS changes. This may be one of those areas which requires further clarification. The rule in 61.316(a) refers to an "aircraft that, since it's original certification" meets the list performance and design requirements. It clearly applies to modifications like high lift devices to lower Vs1 from above 59 to below 59. Less clear, as it was before MOSAIC, is the status of an aircraft that originally met MOSAIC requirements but was later modified in a way that brough it beyond - can it be returned to it's original?
1980Mooney Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said: Unless your J and been modified in some what to change the POH numbers, the answer whether it may be flown exercising sport privileges is yes. I just did a MOSAIC presentation this morning where I gave some aircraft examples. I didn't include any of the Mooneys, but the one that got a lot of surprised looks was a V35 Bonanza. He said his plane had been modified by STC to 2,900 lbs MGW. And that the STC AFM showed new performance numbers. You can't say "I want the STC to apply yesterday but not today....so I will just ignore the AFM today...."
kortopates Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 This may be one of those areas which requires further clarification. The rule in 61.316(a) refers to an "aircraft that, since it's original certification" meets the list performance and design requirements. It clearly applies to modifications like high lift devices to lower Vs1 from above 59 to below 59. Less clear, as it was before MOSAIC, is the status of an aircraft that originally met MOSAIC requirements but was later modified in a way that brough it beyond - can it be returned to it's original? As a mechanic and IA, there is nothing unusual about undoing a SB or even backing out a STC (which does require filling another 337). But once done, the plane is legally returned to the unmodified state WRT to that mod. Hard to imagine it being different in the eyes of MOSAIC rules. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 1
1980Mooney Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 13 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said: Unless your J and been modified in some what to change the POH numbers, the answer whether it may be flown exercising sport privileges is yes. I just did a MOSAIC presentation this morning where I gave some aircraft examples. I didn't include any of the Mooneys, but the one that got a lot of surprised looks was a V35 Bonanza. 1 minute ago, 1980Mooney said: He said his plane had been modified by STC to 2,900 lbs MGW. And that the STC AFM showed new performance numbers. You can't say "I want the STC to apply yesterday but not today....so I will just ignore the AFM today...." This would be like me saying "I will just ignore the AFM for my Missile (IO-550A) STC conversion (MGW 3,200 lbs) on my 1980 M20J and revert back to the old original POH numbers for my "2,740 lb MGW Mooney M20J"..... 1
Flyler Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 1 minute ago, 1980Mooney said: This would be like me saying "I will just ignore the AFM for my Missile (IO-550A) STC conversion (MGW 3,200 lbs) on my 1980 M20J and revert back to the old original POH numbers for my "2,740 lb MGW Mooney M20J"..... My understanding is that the STC to increase the weight limit is just asking for the paperwork to be done by the factory. If I'm not mistaken, the physical changes were something like small reinforcements in the landing gear system. So it does sound a bit like a special case. If the stall speed was changed due to this STC, wouldn't it require modification to the POH? Then you could just look at the "current" POH? Just curious, I really don't know the answer.
midlifeflyer Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 1 minute ago, kortopates said: As a mechanic and IA, there is nothing unusual about undoing a SB or even backing out a STC (which does require filling another 337). But once done, the plane is legally returned to the unmodified state WRT to that mod. Hard to imagine it being different in the eyes of MOSAIC rules. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Different from what? That's the reason quoted the exact words of the rule. Not met MOSAIC requirements "at the time of it's original certification, " but "since the time of it's original certification." Since modification to make an aircraft MOSAIC compliant are a no-go, I can see the FAA looking at this both ways. I don't have an answer.
midlifeflyer Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 4 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: This would be like me saying "I will just ignore the AFM for my Missile (IO-550A) STC conversion (MGW 3,200 lbs) on my 1980 M20J and revert back to the old original POH numbers for my "2,740 lb MGW Mooney M20J"..... I didn't take the question to be about "ignoring," but "undoing." If the STC is only paperwork, it adds an additional wrinkle.
kortopates Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 There are 2 ways the J’s where modified to increase MGW:1) only on some eligible J by serial number, Mooney provided a SB to increase it from 2740 to 2900 lbs.2) Rocket Engineering STC to replace the IO-360 with a TCM IO-550-A with a much larger increase in MGW.Of course both increased the J’s Vs1 above the MOSAIC threshold of 59 CAS since the J was barely compliant at 2740 lbs.The J SB mod to 2900 lbs can be undone without too much effort as mentioned above but couldn’t imagine returning a Missile to original j status but still possible to do at great $. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
kortopates Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 Different from what? That's the reason quoted the exact words of the rule. Not met MOSAIC requirements "at the time of it's original certification, " but "since the time of it's original certification." Since modification to make an aircraft MOSAIC compliant are a no-go, I can see the FAA looking at this both ways. I don't have an answer.I totally understand your point about modifying an aircraft that originally did not meet MOSAIC requirements as manufactured. But we’re talking about earlier J’s that the TCDS did meet requirements at time of manufacture with a 2740 MGW but later modified to a higher MGW. in the case of the Mooney SB, once undone by a log book entry, (including restoring the original AFMS and airspeed markings) there isn’t even a need by the FAA to keep those maintenance records for more than a year. (the original performing of the SB though would be required to be retained till superseded - such as undoing it.)STC 337’s must be retained for the life of the aircraft. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1980Mooney Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 16 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said: I didn't take the question to be about "ignoring," but "undoing." If the STC is only paperwork, it adds an additional wrinkle. The STC is not "only paperwork". The plane is supposed to have the Air Speed Indicator markings changed (bottom of the Green Arc) to show the change in VS1. If you have a digital display that is easier to do but if you have the analog ASI, you will be sending it out for remarking. It also states that you need to "Remove the rudder from the empennage" and do a rudder balance inspection to determine its static limits. I uploaded SL92-1 which covers the 2,900 MGW increase for appropriate serial numbers to the Files so that there is no confusion.
1980Mooney Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 To be clear, it is not an STC, but a Service Letter. It is a great modification. Undoing it would seem expensive and likely reduce the value of the plane. And if you went to this trouble and expense to reduce the load carrying capability of the M20J just so a Sport Pilot with a "driver's license" could legally fly it, how might it affect insurability or rates? Mooney M20J 2900 POUND GROSS WEIGHT INCREASE, RETROFIT KITS SPECIAL LETTER 92-1 DATE: April 20, 1992 Mooney 205, 201, ATS, MSE; SIN 24-16s thru 24-3200, 24-3202 thru 24-3217 INTRODUCTION: The gross weight of 1991and later M20J aircraft has been increased from 2740 pounds t0 2900 pounds. This increase in useful load is retrofitable to some earlier M20J aircraft. See SIN'S list& above. Five kits are provided for incorporation of: (1) the proper airspeed indicator, (2) the applicable AFM Supplement required for each listed series of S/N aircraft and (3) the inspection of the rudder static balance limits. INSTRUCTIONS: 1. Procure correct retrofit kit listed below. (Refer to SIN and POH/AFM sf existing aircraft) 2. Retrofit Kit (for specific aircraft serial numbers) may be ordered direct from Mooney Service Parts Department, (51 2) 257-W1, using Master Card, Visa or G.0.D. The kits are priced at $1,750.00 net. 3. See instructions shown on field of Mooney 940071 drawing. 4. Install correct airspeed indicator supplied in appropriate kit. 5. Incorporate proper AFM Supplement into the appropriate POWIAFM for aircraft SIN In addition: 6. Refer to Mooney Service Bulletin M20-252, dated 4-6-92. The INSTRUCTIONS shown therein MUST be followed for the above SIN aircraft to complete retrofit incorporation of the 2900 pound gross weight increase for these M20J's. NOTE: When complying with this Special Letter, the instructions of SB M20-252, dated 4-6-92 or subsequent revision, must be accomplished on the above serial numbered aircraft even though the Serial Numbers on SB M20-252 do not specifically refer to the above aircraft. SB M20-252 is the MOONEY M20J RUDDER BALANCE WEIGHT INSPECTION
Jackk Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 8 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: To be clear, it is not an STC, but a Service Letter. It is a great modification. Undoing it would seem expensive and likely reduce the value of the plane. And if you went to this trouble and expense to reduce the load carrying capability of the M20J just so a Sport Pilot with a "driver's license" could legally fly it, how might it affect insurability or rates? Mooney M20J 2900 POUND GROSS WEIGHT INCREASE, RETROFIT KITS SPECIAL LETTER 92-1 DATE: April 20, 1992 Mooney 205, 201, ATS, MSE; SIN 24-16s thru 24-3200, 24-3202 thru 24-3217 INTRODUCTION: The gross weight of 1991and later M20J aircraft has been increased from 2740 pounds t0 2900 pounds. This increase in useful load is retrofitable to some earlier M20J aircraft. See SIN'S list& above. Five kits are provided for incorporation of: (1) the proper airspeed indicator, (2) the applicable AFM Supplement required for each listed series of S/N aircraft and (3) the inspection of the rudder static balance limits. INSTRUCTIONS: 1. Procure correct retrofit kit listed below. (Refer to SIN and POH/AFM sf existing aircraft) 2. Retrofit Kit (for specific aircraft serial numbers) may be ordered direct from Mooney Service Parts Department, (51 2) 257-W1, using Master Card, Visa or G.0.D. The kits are priced at $1,750.00 net. 3. See instructions shown on field of Mooney 940071 drawing. 4. Install correct airspeed indicator supplied in appropriate kit. 5. Incorporate proper AFM Supplement into the appropriate POWIAFM for aircraft SIN In addition: 6. Refer to Mooney Service Bulletin M20-252, dated 4-6-92. The INSTRUCTIONS shown therein MUST be followed for the above SIN aircraft to complete retrofit incorporation of the 2900 pound gross weight increase for these M20J's. NOTE: When complying with this Special Letter, the instructions of SB M20-252, dated 4-6-92 or subsequent revision, must be accomplished on the above serial numbered aircraft even though the Serial Numbers on SB M20-252 do not specifically refer to the above aircraft. SB M20-252 is the MOONEY M20J RUDDER BALANCE WEIGHT INSPECTION It’s a Mooney not a DHC2, the demographic of these things is like 2 seniors and baggage. I’d wager a Mooney that could be flown without playing FAA medical bingo would be welcomed by most who are looking for one
toto Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: He said his plane had been modified by STC to 2,900 lbs MGW It’s not an STC though - the 2900 MGW uses a factory type certificate. ETA: Sorry, I hadn’t read far enough down the thread. You already clarified this.
toto Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 2 hours ago, kortopates said: only on some eligible J by serial number, Mooney provided a SB to increase it from 2740 to 2900 lbs. Right - this was for J models that already had the MSE updates from the factory. There’s a specified range of serial numbers. The SB just requires checking the rudder balance and updating the flight manual. For aircraft with the original airspeed indicator, you also need to update the ASI (Mooney sold a new ASI as part of a 2900 MGW kit). But for aircraft with a digital ASI, it can be done in configuration settings.
Yetti Posted January 18 Report Posted January 18 Is the stall speed and weight meets the MOSAIC requirement as configured for that flight? Or is max weight/stall of the airplane in all configurations?
Hank Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 It's Vs1, stall in clean configuration, at gross weight (what is usually in pur paperwork). Edit: corrected per @kortopates below; although I missed the nomenclature, at least I had the explanation correct.
kortopates Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 It's Vs0, stall in clean configuration, at gross weight (what is usually in pur paperwork). No, Vs1 is clean, (Vso is landing configuration)Sport pilot is limited to Vs1 59 CASSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
1980Mooney Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 2 hours ago, kortopates said: No, Vs1 is clean, (Vso is landing configuration) Sport pilot is limited to Vs1 59 CAS Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk At Max Gross Weight…right?
midlifeflyer Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: At Max Gross Weight…right? Yes.
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