jamesyql Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 Greetings all and happy new year, First off- thanks to the community here for making my first 1.5 yrs of Mooney ownership less mysterious! Can’t imagine trying to figure out the nuances of Mooney ownership and airmanship by myself. I have a 3 year old son and wife. With great anticipation, I am starting to plan longer XC flights for this summer. Debating on balance of leg length vs overall number of stops needed. Goal trip will be ~1600 nm in our J model equipped with a GFC500 autopilot. My IFR flight test is this month. I have some ideas how I will approach this. 5 x ~2 hr legs over ~2 days with another 1-2 days of buffer for weather contingencies. Extra leg on the way home for winds. Options for backup commercial flights at intermediate stops in case of worse weather delays. I also think a discussion on personal minima for early IFR pilots is warranted as a part of this discussion. At this point I wouldn’t be planning any approaches below VFR minima. What has worked well for you and your families?
IvanP Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 Happy New Year and may you have clear skies on most of your trips. I addition to your personal limitations, passenger comfort will be of critical importance if you want to fly with your family. While I am fairly proficient and comfortable flying IFR, my wife prefers not to be in the clouds for extended period of time. She is OK with going throug a layer of clouds on approach or departure once in a while, but her strong preference is VFR flying. That puts some aditional limitations on our flying, but as they say - happy wife, happy life . You may want to expose your spouse to various conditions on short trips to see what, if any, preferences she may have before planning long range trips. Fly safe and ewnjoy your Mooney! 4
jamesyql Posted January 1 Author Report Posted January 1 Thanks, good advice and I feel that will be the likely situation until I see where her comfort level is.
midlifeflyer Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 Still on the subject of passenger comfort… How long are the “legs” on longer road trips? Is it just stop for gas, and back on the road? Or are there stops more often to stretch and take bathroom breaks? What about meals? Issues with motion sickness? I’d use that as a general guideline for smooth conditions. Turbulence is another matter. You are already thinking in terms of planned fuel/break stops, but also think in terms of possible enroute diversions. It’s not discussed enough in training or even later, but think in terms of alternates. Not the one required for IFR fuel planning purposes, but enroute alternates. Where you might go if some need - weather, uncomfortable passenger, etc - arises. Last thing you want is to need to divert with the only options a rural airport with no services, no nearby restaurants, and no lodging. That straight line looks great, but does it leave you within sight of nowhere? That’s also for legs where the weather is acceptable but the forecast a little iffy. Think in terms of decision points - “if the weather at the leg destination gets worse, here’s where I will make my “continue/divert decision.” 2
Vance Harral Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 Suggest making your enroute stops at larger airports with luxurious FBOs and expensive fuel. I know this is contrary to official Mooney CB doctrine, but bear with me for a minute... Early in my family flying endeavors, I dutifully planned XC trips with small airport/cheap fuel stops enroute as a GA loyalist. Doing so effectively ended my wife's interest in GA flying for about a decade. There were a couple of incidents of sitting around at run-down facilities waiting on weather with no Uber/Lyft/cab service that didn't sit well. The last straw for her was my cheerfully diverting for an unplanned potty break stop, but choosing a tiny little airport that turned out to have not even so much as an accessible porta-potty, requiring her to drop trou in the open air. That was 20 years ago, but it's still the first story she tells every time traveling by GA comes up in our friend group. I want to emphasize that my wife and kids aren't high maintenance types, and in theory they're all about adventurous travel. But everyone has their limits, and statistically, GA flying is at the edge of what's fun for most people who aren't actually flying the airplane. She still flies with me on occasion, but we're not really a GA travel family, and I trace it all back to my choice of stopover points when I was young and enthusiastic about GA flying. These days, if I'm traveling with anyone other than another pilot, I'll happily buy eight dollar avgas and pay ramp fees in exchange for comfortable lounges, free cookies, on-the-field maintenance, nearby nice hotels, readily available Uber service, and so forth. The monetary cost is incredibly cheap relative to the emotional expense of a bad travel experience. 16 4
Ibra Posted January 1 Report Posted January 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, jamesyql said: I have some ideas how I will approach this. 5 x ~2 hr legs over ~2 days with another 1-2 days of buffer for weather contingencies. Extra leg on the way home for winds. Options for backup commercial flights at intermediate stops in case of worse weather delays. I also think a discussion on personal minima for early IFR pilots is warranted as a part of this discussion. At this point I wouldn’t be planning any approaches below VFR minima What has worked well for you and your families? I am not sure how much weather plays for Mooney dispatch rates in Canada but one advantage of GA trips is having flexibility compared to airlines flights, you can: * Change dates, say stay +/-2 days, * Change destination, say flying somewhere sunny, This flexibility is something one needs to manage and take to their advantage, however, it adds to the “cost of holiday” (cancellation/replanning costs). For “minima”, the usual rule is to have higher planning minima in forecast weather than execution minima in actual weather, you also expect minima at familiar homebase to be different from unfamiliar destination. For typical, 3 days trip you already know if return flight is feasible with some “add-on margin”, worst case fly somewhere else with better odds, the actual weather may deteriorate while you are on trip but this boils down to having enough buffer. For long day trips, one can have +/-2days. Keep in mind that IFR flying usually involve bumpy conditions, so best to offer smooth cruise in sunshine above clouds with max 10min IMC on each side, this would match airliners experience. Avoid continuous cruise in bumpy clouds or winds, especially with pax having motion sickness. Ideally, GA flights should be scenic VFR flights to offer better views than airlines, flying along coastal line, along valley… I echo what Vance mentioned about picking step-overs and destinations for comfort and passenger interest. What is “pilot paradise” for me is “dump with pump” for passengers, kids & wife. So one has to work on “destination” (or at least what to do once there), this takes lot of effort but it’s very rewarding. Edited January 1 by Ibra 3
jamesyql Posted January 1 Author Report Posted January 1 Love this discussion. Taking all to heart and my wife is also appreciative of the perspectives! I might as well be more specific with one of our hopeful missions in the summers. CYQL - CYRO.
Ragsf15e Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 1 hour ago, jamesyql said: Love this discussion. Taking all to heart and my wife is also appreciative of the perspectives! I might as well be more specific with one of our hopeful missions in the summers. CYQL - CYRO. My wife and I have been traveling with our twins since they were a few months old. We’ve done a 5 hour leg, lots of 4 hour legs, and many 2 hour trips. I personally don’t think going over 4 hours on a leg is good for anyone. 2 x 2 hour legs is probably ok, but id skip the stop and push through instead. My son can stand in the front seat and use a piddle pak. Daughter has done the same in back (with wife’s help), although planning to not use a piddle pack is best but you should have them available! And extra ziplocks! Its sometimes hard to do a second leg in the summer as it gets bumpy and there goes passenger comfort. Always fly in the morning!! Maybe you don’t get the thermal bumps as much in Canada, but trust me, morning is always better. Even if it takes waking up early. Kindles and oxygen were gamechangers for us. We’re a relatively screen free house (at least for the kids), but they get to watch movies on their own kindles in the airplane! Boy does that make life easier, however, if you want them to appreciate the view and the actual flying, forget about it. Wife is usually reading a book. Make sure yours has something to do. Also, my wife rides in back where it’s easier for her to reach/help everyone. Ooh, bring good plane snacks and water that you can eat/drink without making a mess in the airplane! Kids need food to be happy. Oh yeah, back to oxygen… we use it all the time. Even in my F, flying at 10k, after a 4 hour leg, the difference in how you feel is night and day. Kids have been fine with cannulas since they were about 4 or 5. Finally, know how to use the isolate function on your intercom and just do it! You’ll be shocked how quickly a pax (especially a young one) can distract you and you lose your situational awareness. Shocking. My kids are getting slightly better and they are 10. It can really sneak up on you. Also, make sure they have reasonable noise canceling headsets and you have a way for them to watch the kindle with sound but without you having to listen to Barney or Bluey or whatever for 4 hours! 5
dkkim73 Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 Vance's response was really thought-provoking. I must say he's right. What's a fun challenge for us can be annoying for pax. Though we have some good memories from shared adventure. In our neck of the woods the point about summer flying in the early AM due to bumps is a good one. We did some nice night flying early on when flying together, peaceful, but there is risk to be managed in the hills that I would factor in now. Eg I flew my daughter a few hours last week but came back alone in the dark. Starting short might be good.. Build up experience with the pax flow, comfort with noise and bumps, copilot assistance etc. 3
Ragsf15e Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 I also forgot about temp/sun comfort. Make sure you don’t get the cold draft in the back seat from the avionics pass through to the battery area. Your wife will tell you. Some closed cell foam can usually fix that. Also, you don’t want your wife or kid getting cooked in the sun at 10,000’, so some static cling uv block is very helpful. I used 90% clear (which is almost undetectable tint) to block all uv. It’s much more comfortable in the airplane and it keeps it cooler on a hot ramp. @Skates97 has details how on his website. I fully covered both back windows with static tint and my copilot window. 1
Jackk Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 ^ kinder fluff is perfect for this https://www.amazon.com/kinder-Fluff-Sunshade-Certified-Sunshades/dp/B084QHVL6S 1
TangoTango Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 I used the "Sunguard" brand static cling shades from Aircraft Spruce. Probably overpaid compared to the Amazon one, but it works well and gets a lot of use by passengers on long XC. They can put it exactly where they want it and move it around as needed, even double it up if desired. Also when I have passengers in the back seat, a cheap 12/24v heated blanket is a big hit when it gets colder. 1
Schllc Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 I’ve used the Gila film with success. A few others that had more favorable colors were all too rigid to fit on the compound angles of the copilot window. the Gila is very malleable without heat, and laid down really well on the back windows and only acceptable on the copilot side. i ended up just carrying around four or five 10x10 squares and move them around. just try and know where needed as soon as possible. Once the windows are cold it’s hard to make them stick. the whole plane will cost about $60 in film to do. 1
Fritz1 Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 Yes to all, cannot agree more with posh FBOs for wives, my wife is a parsimonius no nonsense bargain shopper, kinda the opposite of me, but last fall we stopped at Texas Jet in Ft Worth, got crew car, girls waiting on her, bag of Texas steak seasoning for a good bye, looved it, 10 years ago stuck in Bozeman MT at the jet center for couple of hours with a mechanical issue, she was watching television on a sofa in a secluded upstairs crew rest area, a girl came up and offered freshly baked chocolate chip cokies, died and gone to heaven, bottom line call ahead and find out which field has and atmosphere that appeals to women and children. Guys have fond memories of landing at a windblown field right before a bad storm, ride to town with the mechanic, get the last room in the only hotel, make it across the street to the local joint just before the downpour really hits, have big steak and a couple of beers with the locals and start worrying about anything else in the morning, women don't think that is funny at all, ask me how I know... 4 7
jamesyql Posted January 2 Author Report Posted January 2 I am thoroughly enjoying all of these responses. Thank you! Here are some thoughts on the comments thus far. I have gila static tint on my rear windows... but, it is the automotive one and they did not have a static cling with UV (only the adhesive type which I did not want to use), so mine is just a tint without the UV protection. Seeing that there are household options that include the UV protection is great. I will redo mine this spring. I also have the kinder fluff shades, and found them not to sit adhere all that well, but should give them another try. Everyone has a lightspeed zulu so we are covered for good headsets with bluetooth thankfully. Road trips are usually under 2 hours between stops, but that is with poor bladder planning, so I think 2 hour legs is reasonable, especially if considering travel johns. My wife has done long legs before with me, up to 4 hours, but that was without our kid. My options for "posh" FBOs are more limited than in the US. I could not believe the level of service I got when I rolled up at KBIL last summer. Thanks all!
Ragsf15e Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 1 hour ago, jamesyql said: I am thoroughly enjoying all of these responses. Thank you! Here are some thoughts on the comments thus far. I have gila static tint on my rear windows... but, it is the automotive one and they did not have a static cling with UV (only the adhesive type which I did not want to use), so mine is just a tint without the UV protection. Seeing that there are household options that include the UV protection is great. I will redo mine this spring. I also have the kinder fluff shades, and found them not to sit adhere all that well, but should give them another try. Everyone has a lightspeed zulu so we are covered for good headsets with bluetooth thankfully. Road trips are usually under 2 hours between stops, but that is with poor bladder planning, so I think 2 hour legs is reasonable, especially if considering travel johns. My wife has done long legs before with me, up to 4 hours, but that was without our kid. My options for "posh" FBOs are more limited than in the US. I could not believe the level of service I got when I rolled up at KBIL last summer. Thanks all! Nothing like the wife’s reaction the first time an FBO pulled a rental car up to our plane, handed us the keys and offered to help with the bags! She thought we were rock stars! This static cling tint sheets were good for me. The 73% is plenty. https://greenfilmusa.com/products/g-cling-70-static-cling-window-tint 3
IvanP Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 +1 on the nice FBOs. Learned that it is worth it a long time ago. However, I would not plan on using any porta-piss solutions in the plane except for emergencies, e.g, flying over water or terrain with no suitable airports avai;lable. Have the Travel John/Jane ready to meet the need, but plan your stops with passenger comfort in mind and save them from the indignity of using these contraptions unless absolutely necessary. It will make for happier trips and potentially cleaner airplane. 2
MikeOH Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, IvanP said: +1 on the nice FBOs. Learned that it is worth it a long time ago. Me, too. And it can be something you may not appreciate in the least....so long ago I can't even remember what airport/FBO but they actually rolled out a red carpet for our plane! My thought was, "how stupid and pointless!". My wife, OTOH, thought it was fabulous! You just never know. 1 1
midlifeflyer Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 13 hours ago, jamesyql said: My options for "posh" FBOs are more limited than in the US. I could not believe the level of service I got when I rolled up at KBIL last summer. If not “posh,” at least look for services, a lounge, and access to some sort of transportation. Long before on-board weather, I, along with my wife, a friend, and his wife ended up making an enroute diversion to get a better handle on the weather ahead. Not knowing any better, we stopped at an airport in New Mexico that had no staff, an FBO building with a couch that we were afraid to sit on, and not even taxi service to town, let alone a crew or rental car. It was the fastest turn around ever. And literally a “turn around.” The weather was worsening toward our destination and, before similar weather reached us, we ran to the plane, “kicked the tires, lit the fires,” and headed to a Class C we passed earlier. (The airport was Truth or Consequences. Although we felt it was very appropriately named at the time, there has been a major turn around since then) 2
McMooney Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 (edited) i plan for 3 hour legs, bladder and fuel reserves. when travelling with the wife sometimes it's spot on other times very optimistic and i end up making many smaller stops. don't be surprised is really what i'm getting about. my experience, cloud flying is actually not bad with passengers except when really turbulent, avoid flying at the base. wife prefers the clouds as it blocks the sun, kids don't care, and get used to whatever it is after 20 mins. read that as bored, take extra tablets and batteries. do this trip soon, i found after the newness wore off and it became regular, only i was really excited about taking a trip "in the plane", they only care about getting there. Edited January 2 by McMooney 1
Schllc Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 26 minutes ago, McMooney said: do this trip soon, i found after the newness wore off and it became regular, only i was really excited about taking a trip "in the plane", they only care about getting there and the plane is just transpo. I recently went to my parents home to pick them up and bring them to my house for the holiday. this was the first time they took a long trip in the plane and were excited and loved the convenience. I realized that I still have that exuberance every single time I fly. I still can’t believe I get to do this! I suspect when/if that ends, I will have to take a other look at it… until then I am a little kid every time i think about getting in the cockpit. 3
McMooney Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 20 minutes ago, Schllc said: I recently went to my parents home to pick them up and bring them to my house for the holiday. this was the first time they took a long trip in the plane and were excited and loved the convenience. I realized that I still have that exuberance every single time I fly. I still can’t believe I get to do this! I suspect when/if that ends, I will have to take a other look at it… until then I am a little kid every time o think about getting in the cockpit. I know this feeling. i'm going on a cruise, realized the other day i'm excited about flying to ft lauderdale, don't really care about the cruise 3
Schllc Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 Last summer a friend and I took off headed west for three weeks. Wasn’t sure where we would go or what we would do. No reason the journey can’t be as much fun as the destination! On a somber note, a fellow who bought a Mooney from me a few years ago, whom also became a friend, died in his new to him TBM , in Wisconsin this last November. Night time approach, in very low IMC in a relatively new to him airplane. No judgment, just the facts. I just found out about it this morning. Second friend in aviation I have lost in as many years. As fun and exhilarating as this activity is, let as all remember how serious it is at the same time. 1 3
dkkim73 Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 12 hours ago, jamesyql said: My options for "posh" FBOs are more limited than in the US. I could not believe the level of service I got when I rolled up at KBIL last summer. Well I think Beacon is in the top ranks. They can do the white glove jet thing, the business partnerships, on-site A&Ps, etc, but the enterprise is owned and hands-on managed by a real aviation guy who believes you can never leave out GA (not as universal as it used to be). They do events, organize rides for kids, etc. Also the FBO across the field (Edwards) is also very good, so there's some virtuous competition 1
dkkim73 Posted January 2 Report Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Schllc said: this was the first time they took a long trip in the plane and were excited and loved the convenience. We tend to forget this. It's really a neat thing. Ever now and then over the last couple years I've paused to think just how enabling and empowering my commute was. It's easy to get distracted by worries, externalities, inconveniences. But there is an aspect of adventure/engagement/bracing challenge that really motivates some people more than others. E.g. backpacking in somewhat challenging conditions, practicing navigation, field expedients, carrying a heavy pack, and "roughing it" followed by a hot cup of soup around the stove at night invigorates some people (I would say most if you get them at the right time in their lives) but sounds insane to others. 4
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