Apology For Stupid Q. about Canada NAV Fees

[RonM]

Friends:  I apologize for my stupid Question about Canada NAV fees.  The invoice from Canada NAV took me by surprise when I was catching up on old bills and I was in a grouchy mood.  The Canada NAV customer service was closed for the day, so I ran like a little baby to Mooney Space to ask what I now know was a stupid question.  Also I don't like the idea of User Fees for flying, so that was a contributing factor to my panic.  Also I got bad info on the internet and I was under the false impression that once I go to Canada, I owe quarterly User Fees as long as I own my airplane.  Anyhow, the info was readily available online and I spoke to Canada NAV customer service and paid my bill and asked how the fees work.  They are not really that bad and I will continue flying to Canada.  I love the flight from Caldwell, NJ to Billy Bishop City Island Toronto Airport.  Again, I apologize for what was a stupid question.  Everybody have a great day and enjoy your flying.   Respectfully - RonM

[Slick Nick]

NavCan sucks. They're useless. 

[jamesyql]

NavCan sucks. They're useless. 

Curious what makes you say that? As a newer pilot I have found the weather briefing services invaluable for helping me learn and stay safe. Especially mountain flying with such a multitude of variables that need to be considered. I don’t think I get billed more than $100 CAD ($20 USD ) for a year of service which obviously also includes FSS, FISE, towers, etc.

[Steve Dawson]

Nav Canada has been great for me, There's a lot you get for $25/quarter. 

What did you think of the fees at Billy Bishop? lol 

[RonM]

Steve:  The fees at Billy Bishop were high but I was prepared for that. The User Fees sent me over the edge but I have since recovered. I did not expect User Fees.  I know in the USA some have been pushing for User Fees, but AOPA etc have been successful in thwarting.  I believe in the freedom to fly. The problem with User Fees is the gov't will keep jacking them up, up, up.

[RonM]

One US dollar = $1.40 Canadian Dollar.  Currently the Canada NAV User Fees affordable and will not stop me from flying to Canada.  We in the USA have been fending off the threat of User Fees for a long time. I personally don't like the idea of them.  

[jamesyql]

One US dollar = $1.40 Canadian Dollar.  Currently the Canada NAV User Fees affordable and will not stop me from flying to Canada.  We in the USA have been fending off the threat of User Fees for a long time. I personally don't like the idea of them.  

I was poking fun at our brutal exchange rate. I know it’s not that bad.

Totally agree about all the “auto” billing user fees using ADSB data etc, especially when the FAA postured during the ADBS mandate years that it would not be used for commercial reasons.


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[Slick Nick]

12 hours ago, jamesyql said:

Curious what makes you say that? As a newer pilot I have found the weather briefing services invaluable for helping me learn and stay safe. Especially mountain flying with such a multitude of variables that need to be considered. I don’t think I get billed more than $100 CAD ($20 USD ) for a year of service which obviously also includes FSS, FISE, towers, etc.

The weather briefings I find for the most part, they just present the information that you can obtain yourself, with no real context. In my experience, they just read off what the prog charts are saying. The guys at Leidos actually seem to have an understanding of the weather systems on a much more involved scale, they can give you information that's not available on the charts, especially if you're unfamiliar with the local climate, they can provide you with some valuable insight to assist in your decision making. 

As for the service, where to begin? Constant IFR flow delays into Vancouver on sunny, clear VFR days. Calgary is starting to see that now too. Temporary tower closures in Kelowna and Winnipeg due to staffing shortages. Flying around capped at 29,000' because there's nobody to staff the IFR high sector in CZEG or CZVR. Landing in YVR with ground, clearance delivery, and tower all on a bridged frequency because there are only two controllers working the entire airport. Decomissioning damn near every ground based navaid in the country in favor of "mandatory" RNAV routing. (FYI: they can not deny service if you are unable RNAV, although they will try.) Decomissioning ground based radar to save money, shifting the cost burden to the users by "mandating" 1090 ADS-B. 

Year after year, the service gets worse, and the fees never change. The infrastructure is lacking, the staffing issues have no solution in sight. Flying in the USA is a breath of fresh air compared to Canada in terms of quality of service. I spend 600-700 hours a year flying in NavCan’s airspace, and most of it is an exercise in frustration.

To be clear, I take no issue with the controllers, briefers, and staff themselves. They are professionals, and doing the best they can within the confines of the organization and policies they work under. The issue I take is with NavCan as a whole. It's a private company with a monopoly on the market, hence zero accountability. There's no incentive to improve. 

[1980Mooney]

15 hours ago, RonM said:

The problem with User Fees is the gov't will keep jacking them up, up, up.

As opposed to the "User Fees" charged by Private Equity owned aviation companies that are rapidly continuing to consolidate the aviation industry?   You don't think that they will "keep jacking them (their User Fees) up, up, up?!    

• Data -
  • Thoma Bravo/ Jeppessen, Foreflight and OzRunways,
• FBO's - 
  • Sterling Group/Lynx
  •  Tallvine Partners/Odyssey Aviation
  • Igneo Infrastructure Partners/Infinity Aviation
  • Vantage Aviation/Dominion Aviation
  • Apollo Partners & Tiger Infrastructure Partners/Modern Aviation
  • etc.
• Logistics/Handling -
  • Sterling Group/PrimeFlight Aviation Services

[1980Mooney]

16 hours ago, jamesyql said:

Totally agree about all the “auto” billing user fees using ADSB data etc, especially when the FAA postured during the ADBS mandate years that it would not be used for commercial reasons.
 

There is a simple solution which I think the "bright kids" at the Private Equity companies consolidating aviation services will soon figure out.

• The FBO's and airports will charge a substantially lower fee/rate if Owners allow the use of "automated billing" in order to get a "discount".
• Or, if the FBO needs to hire a kid with a clipboard & binoculars or same to watch cameras or install number reading tech cameras to bill Owners manually, then the Owner can pay a much higher fee - maybe 2X or 3X higher.

Owners will be all over and in favor of automated billing in a heartbeat......

Edited Wednesday at 07:07 PM by 1980Mooney

[1980Mooney]

16 hours ago, RonM said:

 I know in the USA some have been pushing for User Fees, but AOPA etc have been successful in thwarting.  I believe in the freedom to fly. The problem with User Fees is the gov't will keep jacking them up, up, up.

 

16 hours ago, RonM said:

.  We in the USA have been fending off the threat of User Fees for a long time. I personally don't like the idea of them.  

Don't get too comfortable with Duffy's comments in August about not planning to privatize ATC "“I could spend my time the next three and a half years fighting over privatization. I’m not going to do that,”

The minute it becomes apparent that they have grossly underestimated the cost to update the Nation's air traffic control system, this flip/flop administration will immediately be singing a different tune.  Crony capitalists will appear and offer "ideas" that appear to reduce the cost to the Administration.  And don't forget it was Duffy's boss that suggested privatization of ATC in the first term.  And don't expect your do nothing/incapable of independent thought local Representative or Senator to help out.

The shut down is already renewing calls for privatization....

Opinion: The shutdown exposes the need to privatize air traffic control - Anchorage Daily News

The Shutdown Exposes the Need to Privatize Air Traffic Control - Articles - Advisor Perspectives  (reprint from Bloomberg without subscription needed)

[jamesyql]

The weather briefings I find for the most part, they just present the information that you can obtain yourself, with no real context. In my experience, they just read off what the prog charts are saying. The guys at Leidos actually seem to have an understanding of the weather systems on a much more involved scale, they can give you information that's not available on the charts, especially if you're unfamiliar with the local climate, they can provide you with some valuable insight to assist in your decision making. 
As for the service, where to begin? Constant IFR flow delays into Vancouver on sunny, clear VFR days. Calgary is starting to see that now too. Temporary tower closures in Kelowna and Winnipeg due to staffing shortages. Flying around capped at 29,000' because there's nobody to staff the IFR high sector in CZEG or CZVR. Landing in YVR with ground, clearance delivery, and tower all on a bridged frequency because there are only two controllers working the entire airport. Decomissioning damn near every ground based navaid in the country in favor of "mandatory" RNAV routing. (FYI: they can not deny service if you are unable RNAV, although they will try.) Decomissioning ground based radar to save money, shifting the cost burden to the users by "mandating" 1090 ADS-B. 
Year after year, the service gets worse, and the fees never change. The infrastructure is lacking, the staffing issues have no solution in sight. Flying in the USA is a breath of fresh air compared to Canada in terms of quality of service. I spend 600-700 hours a year flying in NavCan’s airspace, and most of it is an exercise in frustration.
To be clear, I take no issue with the controllers, briefers, and staff themselves. They are professionals, and doing the best they can within the confines of the organization and policies they work under. The issue I take is with NavCan as a whole. It's a private company with a monopoly on the market, hence zero accountability. There's no incentive to improve. 

Thanks for your perspective. I truly haven’t flown in busy airspace enough to have experienced some of those issues, sounds like it definitely needs some improvement. Working as a controller in Canada is actually a pretty sweet career with good pay. You would think they could attract more talent! I was impressed with flight following in the US. Very helpful.