Rocket W&B: Help! Family of three or two possible?

[Trogdor]

I was speaking with a local shop, and they told me they had a Rocket they were doing an annual on and that given its CG, there was no way you could have two heavy adults in the front let alone three adults total.

Now, to give you some perspective, I typically fly with two weight configurations:

- My family 190 (me), 150 (wife), and my son (60) - wife is in back, son is in front (she won't sit in the front)

- I usually fly with just a close friend (230), both of us in front

Shop was pretty sure that it just won't work no matter how much fuel we drop or what we throw in the baggage because we will just be too front loaded and out of envelope.

Can anyone confirm this to be true? Do all Rocket pilots log just solo time? Like what?

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I was speaking with a local shop, and they told me they had a Rocket they were doing an annual on and that given its CG, there was no way you could have two heavy adults in the front let alone three adults total.

Now, to give you some perspective, I typically fly with two weight configurations:

- My family 190 (me), 150 (wife), and my son (60) - wife is in back, son is in front (she won't sit in the front)

- I usually fly with just a close friend (230), both of us in front

Shop was pretty sure that it just won't work no matter how much fuel we drop or what we throw in the baggage because we will just be too front loaded and out of envelope.

Can anyone confirm this to be true? Do all Rocket pilots log just solo time? Like what?

There is no generic answer.  You need to run the W&B for your airplane.  If it seems way off, you may have to have it weighed by someone who knows what they are doing -- it's a lot of work.

[Trogdor]

47 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

There is no generic answer.  You need to run the W&B for your airplane.  If it seems way off, you may have to have it weighed by someone who knows what they are doing -- it's a lot of work.

I understand that to a degree - but I'm just feeling for if W&B is truly a challenge to fit 2 or even 3 folks in it. I think that is a reasonable ask. Let me rephrase: If you own a Rocket have you flown with 2 adults, how about 3? Do you carry full fuel? Was it a real hassle to get the CG right? Those kinds of things.

[Fix]

If you can consider an M20K 252 Encore or 252 with Encore upgrade you can load it pretty good.
 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I understand that to a degree - but I'm just feeling for if W&B is truly a challenge to fit 2 or even 3 folks in it. I think that is a reasonable ask. Let me rephrase: If you own a Rocket have you flown with 2 adults, how about 3? Do you carry full fuel? Was it a real hassle to get the CG right? Those kinds of things.

I can't answer your specific question, but I can say that, like every Mooney, you can't load up four large people, 100 gallons of fuel, and 120 lbs of baggage.  You may not be able to do any two of those things.

[exM20K]

search is your friend

 

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I understand that to a degree - but I'm just feeling for if W&B is truly a challenge to fit 2 or even 3 folks in it. I think that is a reasonable ask. Let me rephrase: If you own a Rocket have you flown with 2 adults, how about 3? Do you carry full fuel? Was it a real hassle to get the CG right? Those kinds of things.

I have a 252, not a rocket, so maybe this isn’t helpful…

I wouldn’t expect to load 3 adults, baggage and full fuel in many (most?) 4 seat airplanes.  You will start dropping fuel to make the weights work, however, most Mooneys have enough fuel for 5-7 hours (mine has extended tanks, so ~10 hours total if full).  It’s generally not a problem to reduce to 4 hours fuel and still have excellent range.  As an example, the 6 seat PA-46T Meridian I fly only has ~550lbs of useful load left at full fuel, but half fuel is very functional.

So load should be manageable.

Balance, well, the Rocket might be a different animal, however most Mooney’s are very flexible as far as how they are loaded.  Much more so than say Bonazas.  I can definitely fly two adults in front with no baggage.  As an example, here’s a weight and balance with 60 gallons of fuel and 4 x 180lb adults. No baggage.  It works fine but it’s a 252, so not a Rocket.  As mentioned above, over the years the WB can easily get messed up so if it seems off, it might need reweighed.

 

[Trogdor]

48 minutes ago, exM20K said:

search is your friend

 

I don’t know but it didn’t come up the first time. Thanks

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

I can't answer your specific question, but I can say that, like every Mooney, you can't load up four large people, 100 gallons of fuel, and 120 lbs of baggage.  You may not be able to do any two of those things.

Not shocking. But it seems like three people all under 200, 72 gallons of fuel, and 50 pounds seems doable.

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I don’t know but it didn’t come up the first time. Thanks

I just google the search term and mooneyspace.com.  As with most forums, the results are superior to the native forum search.

-dan

[Trogdor]

8 hours ago, exM20K said:

I just google the search term and mooneyspace.com.  As with most forums, the results are superior to the native forum search.

-dan

I did do a Google search and came up with one person's sheet which contradicted everything that shop told me - wondering if they were confusing the Rocket with something else?

[donkaye, MCFI]

This is not your airplane, since I don't have the empty weight and moment arm, but it is another Rocket in which I have trained people.  This spreadsheet is the best I have known designed by a student of mine who was an engineer.  I did "what if" and found for your requirements this is the best you are going to get for your wife and child.  The configuration with your friend will not work.   It may be possible if you were to have your mechanic put Charlie weights in the back.

wb Version 3.8 231 Rocket Family.xls wb Version 3.8 231 Rocket Friend.xls

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have a 252, not a rocket, so maybe this isn’t helpful…

I wouldn’t expect to load 3 adults, baggage and full fuel in many (most?) 4 seat airplanes.  You will start dropping fuel to make the weights work, however, most Mooneys have enough fuel for 5-7 hours (mine has extended tanks, so ~10 hours total if full).  It’s generally not a problem to reduce to 4 hours fuel and still have excellent range. 

 

You need to do the Encore upgrade.  230 pounds additional GW.  For no change in empty weight (well maybe a couple of pounds).

I also have Monroy tanks, but can do two people, full fuel, and still have UL for 50 pounds of baggage.

[donkaye, MCFI]

16 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

You need to do the Encore upgrade.  230 pounds additional GW.  For no change in empty weight (well maybe a couple of pounds).

I also have Monroy tanks, but can do two people, full fuel, and still have UL for 50 pounds of baggage.

You're talking apples and oranges.  There's no Encore upgrade for a Rocket.  The "Rocket" was the upgrade.

[Ragsf15e]

27 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

You need to do the Encore upgrade.  230 pounds additional GW.  For no change in empty weight (well maybe a couple of pounds).

I also have Monroy tanks, but can do two people, full fuel, and still have UL for 50 pounds of baggage.

I have that.  On the WB I posted, mgw is 3130.  Empty is 2046.  I also have Monroys.  I bet our airplanes are within a few lbs of each other.

[Trogdor]

@donkaye, MCFISomething is off here based on talking with now three other Rocket owners:  All of them have reported back with their own sheets and have no issue staying in the envelope with 72 gallons of fuel with even more weight than the scenarios I described.

The original Rocket Engineering document says:

The takeoff weight is 3,200 lbs. The conversion adds 208 lbs. to the empty weight, moving the CG forward .3". 

How can the 252 envelope change that dramatically given those changes (someone posted the stock 252 one above)? Just throwing it out there.

The sheet also states the constant data is from an M20F but I assume it has been updated accordingly for 252/Rocket numbers?

@Ragsf15e Based on Don's sheet, that seems to be the big difference. MGW is supposed to be near 3200 with an empty around 2068 (2046 is definitely inline with that). https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40368222&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Mooney rocket conversion specs-Master.PDF

And that wasn't even with a glass panel which should reduce the empty substantially.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

@donkaye, MCFISomething is off here based on talking with now three other Rocket owners:  All of them have reported back with their own sheets and have no issue staying in the envelope with 72 gallons of fuel with even more weight than the scenarios I described.

The original Rocket Engineering document says:

The takeoff weight is 3,200 lbs. The conversion adds 208 lbs. to the empty weight, moving the CG forward .3". 

How can the 252 envelope change that dramatically given those changes (someone posted the stock 252 one above)? Just throwing it out there.

The sheet also states the constant data is from an M20F but I assume it has been updated accordingly for 252/Rocket numbers?

@Ragsf15e Based on Don's sheet, that seems to be the big difference. MGW is supposed to be near 3200 with an empty around 2068 (2046 is definitely inline with that). https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40368222&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Mooney rocket conversion specs-Master.PDF

And that wasn't even with a glass panel which should reduce the empty substantially.

 

These things are pretty easy to “mis-weigh”.  Or simply to mess up the math while doing updates to the WB.  It happens all the time.  There is a very specific procedure in the maintenance manual on how to weigh it and do the math… it’s a little complicated/confusing and people mess it up.  I would look at the original factory WB and compare that to the one after conversion to a Rocket.  Obviously it will be different, but try to account for anything significant and see if it looks possible.  It might need re weighed.

[Trogdor]

Waiting for a picture of the W&B sheet. Was supposed to get it here. Not sure how an all glass Rocket could weigh even close to 2400 pounds in @donkaye, MCFIsheet. That is one heavy Rocket. Most of the older ones with stock instruments seem to hover around the 2100 mark. I would assume all glass would bring it down under that - and if I have that, then everything works out on all sheets (maybe drop a little fuel).