Two gear up landings within 2 days of each other - M20C at KFNL & M20M at KPAE.

[A64Pilot]

On 4/27/2025 at 11:29 PM, Andy95W said:

Someone here (maybe @Hank?) has said their spouse has one job in the pattern and that’s to ask if the gear is down when on final approach.  If I’d thought about that when I was instructing, I would’ve suggested that.

I think it was me, but her job is not to ask, but to make sure, Verify gear down is I think an important distinction from gear down and I have her verify by looking at the floor, then she gives me a thumbs up, of course I’m checking too, but her doing also makes I think it less likely that both of us forget. Obviously I often fly without her, Wednesday lunch for instance so you can’t rely on the other person.

I also installed a daylight white LED in the floor indicator that’s a lot brighter than the incandescent so it’s really easy to see the marks, with the old bulb in daylight it was difficult at best.

To continue everything stops when I get the gear, by that I mean I do nothing, checklist stops until I verify they are down, flipping the switch for many satisfies mentally the requirement, but i’ve changed that to verify gear down as opposed to gear down in the checklist. May seem picky but I know the day is coming when I put the switch down and nothing happens 

[A64Pilot]

On 4/28/2025 at 1:55 AM, hazek said:

How do people slow down to flap speed without the gear down? Idle power, speed brakes and nose up?? For me coming in at 20" the gear must come down to slow down. There's no other obvious normal approach way.

I got my fixed wing transition and Commercial / instrument at Central Tx College in Killeen Tx, as it was a degree producing program it made it easier for me to do while active duty. Anyway the purpose of that school was to produce Airline Pilots not Mooney drivers. According to them most or nearly all Airline type aircraft get approach flaps, not gear first, so therefore they required flaps first, then gear, which means of course you had to slow to 111 kts, put in approach flaps, then get gear.

It’s easy to do if you plan it, but you have to plan ahead, you’re not making the approach if you hit glide slope intercept at 130 kts for instance. I have zero experience with the big iron, but bet they are similar I bet they have to start slowing well before the approach.

I’m also convinced that at least for the aircraft with lower gear doors that slowing before dropping the gear is easier on the actuator and the mechanism, as is retracting it at as slow an airspeed that is safe to do so.

[A64Pilot]

On 4/28/2025 at 10:24 AM, Pinecone said:

The USAF trains from early on in retract aircraft, does lots of touch and goes, and does not have many gear ups.

But they do have an RSU with someone watching to make sure the gear is down (for GA a Landing Height System would do similar), but even so, they seldom have someone forget the gear.

I was Military trained as well, but we cannot compare Military training to GA civilian training. It’s not so much that the Military pilots are “better” they are most often younger and much more highly motivated and those arguably make them more trainable. It’s their Job, no other distractions, my training was classroom training half the day and the flightline the other half, if we had a weather day, we flew the weekends to make it up. 

Civilians have a job that’s primary usually, they train and fly when they can, maybe a couple of times a week, plus their instructor is their employee, if they don’t like them they can get another, you take a checkride when you and your instructor feel your ready. Military isn’t like that, you checkride upon reaching the syllabus hours, fail just one and as a min you don’t graduate at the top of your class which means you don’t pick the aircraft you fly as a min. fail a couple and your out, in my case that meant staying a Sgt and back to being a mechanic, not the end of the world, but certainly the end of the dream, part of the motivation.

So most civilian it’s a hobby, paid for by that job that they spend a min of 40 hours a week at so they can afford to fly.

Military it is their job, so they can spend every day, all day training.

[Pinecone]

But a civilian student can also have the motivation and mindset similar to military.  They just need to switch gears from primary work to flying when they get to the airport.

[A64Pilot]

14 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But a civilian student can also have the motivation and mindset similar to military.  They just need to switch gears from primary work to flying when they get to the airport.

Not really, you think you can but ask anyone who has been through basic training if they have ever been that motivated in the civilian world, for me WOC “Warrant Officer Candidate” training made basic look easy. Air Force and Army “real” Officers it’s a lot more laid back.

But the biggest difference I think is in the Military and I assume Commercial world, it’s your Job, the thing that you have to do well in as it brings home the bacon, buys shoes for the Baby etc. Then add in that you get up in the morning thinking flying, majority of the day is consumed by it and nights are spent studying and memorizing everything about it and the aircraft. There is just no way anyone with a real job could possibly put that number of hours per week into training, not and have a job anyway or actually a family really.

There is no change the mindset when you get to the airport. The entirety of your life if you will is flying and training.

I was Married and had a kid, but did not live with them, I lived in a Military Barracks, at some point I was allowed to go home on the weekends I think as long as training was going well, but I don’t remember when that was.

Edited Wednesday at 01:18 PM by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

I meant that a motivated civilian student could approach with the proper mindset and accomplish much of the same.

The biggest thing I saw with military flight training was flying more often.  Flying just about every day and sometimes 2 flights in a day.

From first flights to graduation was about 10 months.  So 200 work days.  And I graduated with 170 hours in the aircraft, plus sim time.  Some others were over 240 hours (IIRC).  So we averaged just under an hour a day to a good bit over.