New to me '65 M20C - Annoying radio mounting, water in my fuel, and other questions

[Aaviationist]

Weird, I thought  read the number changed when it was painted. I may be mistaken 

[jeremyc209]

EDIT: I think I have the servo hardware located.

No change of N number that I can see. There is another '65 E at our airport that's a few numbers off from mine too, N5504Q. Mine was painted in 2004.

Anyone know where I can get the hardware for the Brittain aileron servos? They're all mostly the same can (BI-706) but the rudder servos have cables and the ailerons have these chains. I'm missing the ailerons and bought a set of servos but they don't have the hardware.

[cliffy]

Just a word of caution until you get the gas cap rim changed

If water can get in then gas can get out on the low pressure area of the wing

You might find on an upcoming flight that you port overboard a lot of your fuel from that tank all of a sudden. 

Being that it is the right side you won't see it until its too late. Out of sight out of mind during the flights. 

Don't get caught running out of gas. 

[jeremyc209]

Thanks for the heads-up, didn't think of that but makes sense. I'm curious now though, I'll have to be a little more scientific with my tank switching and refills to see if that's happening as I haven't noticed. 

[jeremyc209]

Nav1 GS/VOR antenna connectors were reversed, and the coax at the tail was disconnected. VOR/ILS/GS on both radios all testing good now.

Wasn't worth spending to rearrange and remount the radios flush right now, I'll just hold off until I do a proper upgrade.

Has anyone stripped and buffed Whelen wingtip strobes? I have new tip sight lenses coming and one side doesn't match (replaced a broken housing). I was thinking of removing both to paint strip, buff and put them back together with fresh gaskets. I do have a little spare paint in a can and there seems to still be liquid in there, no idea if it's still good though.

 

[Aaviationist]

Again, based on your findings, it sounds like you are at the beginning of your maintenance journey. 
 

must have been some hangar!

 

id strongly recommend you check all the controls and surfaces for proper assembly. What you found suggests those connections have not been assembled properly since it was painted.  And nobody bothered to check. 
 

get someone to look at this airplane VERY closely. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:04 PM by Aaviationist

[AJ88V]

@jeremyc209, you might want to reach out here for the fuel filler parts:

 

[AndreiC]

In a previous life I owned a Cherokee which I kept tied down outside. After a period of heavy rains I found quite a bit of water in the fuel, and discovered that the filler neck on one side was pitted. Immediately replaced the gaskets, and my mechanic did two things: 1) Sanded down the pitting till it was more or less smooth, but while being very careful to not get dust into the tank (I don't recall how he did that part). 2) Put some Dow Corning #??? on the lips of the filler necks and on the gaskets of the caps. (I don't know the exact DC number, maybe someone else here knows; it was a clear greasy substance.) This DC grease was reapplied at every annual, and every time I stopped by for other maintenance issues. 

After this I no longer had any problems with water in the fuel, even though I still kept that plane outside for a few more years. May be worth doing as a temporary measure, since it was a small ticket item. Could prevent bigger issues like what @cliffy said.

[jeremyc209]

1 hour ago, Aaviationist said:

Again, based on your findings, it sounds like you are at the beginning of your maintenance journey. 
 

must have been some hangar!

 

id strongly recommend you check all the controls and surfaces for proper assembly. What you found suggests those connections have not been assembled properly since it was painted.  And nobody bothered to check. 
 

get someone to look at this airplane VERY closely. 

A bit dramatic there, fella

It's had ~21 annuals since being painted. This connector was probably missed on the last annual, nbd

[jeremyc209]

19 minutes ago, AndreiC said:

In a previous life I owned a Cherokee which I kept tied down outside. After a period of heavy rains I found quite a bit of water in the fuel, and discovered that the filler neck on one side was pitted. Immediately replaced the gaskets, and my mechanic did two things: 1) Sanded down the pitting till it was more or less smooth, but while being very careful to not get dust into the tank (I don't recall how he did that part). 2) Put some Dow Corning #??? on the lips of the filler necks and on the gaskets of the caps. (I don't know the exact DC number, maybe someone else here knows; it was a clear greasy substance.) This DC grease was reapplied at every annual, and every time I stopped by for other maintenance issues. 

After this I no longer had any problems with water in the fuel, even though I still kept that plane outside for a few more years. May be worth doing as a temporary measure, since it was a small ticket item. Could prevent bigger issues like what @cliffy said.

This might work and I'll talk to my mechanic about it at least as a temporary solution. The cap locks very tight on that side so the neck could lose a little material and still get a tight lock I'm sure.

[Aaviationist]

15 minutes ago, jeremyc209 said:

A bit dramatic there, fella

It's had ~21 annuals since being painted. This connector was probably missed on the last annual, nbd

No, that connector and cable was painted (instead of taking the 30 seconds to cover it) and then, at some point disconnected, likely during painting as well based on what it looks like, then left in there for however long. 
 

we know it’s been that way for a while because someone tried to troubleshoot it by swapping the cables from the splitter, leaving them connected backwards. There is no reason to do that otherwise, or, it never worked. (Because the cable in the tail was not connected)  the paint on the connector k bus is still there suggesting it’s not been worn off (or even marked) by assembly or disassembly  

Next, the ad for that airplane says there is no corrosion, but your fuel cap is very heavily corroded. 
 

there are a lot of things you have posted in your journey so far that don’t really make sense. This is just one of them. Why was one wingtip light painted and the other not?  Why didn’t they bother to cover that cable and connector when they painted it? Is that corrosion behind the jack screw? It’s hard to tell as the picture is blurry. 
 

that cover over the jack screw is shredded. And we know it’s been there for a while and likely in that same condition for a while because that too appears to have inexplicably painted as well. 
 

You need to have someone who knows what they’re doing look very closely at this airplane. If it’s had 21 annuals since painted I’d be having a hard look at everything in that 21 years because it clearly has not been inspected back there. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:32 PM by Aaviationist

[jeremyc209]

@Aaviationist

It's hard to take your "advice" seriously when you seem to base it on a lot of doomsday assumptions made with very little information, and you're not reading the little information I am providing. I'm trying not to give a novel of a backstory on every question I ask but I do try to add relevant information.

For example, I said the housing on the wingtip light was broken and replaced with the non-matching part, I didn't say I had the mechanic do because he had one on hand for cheap. I assume the old one got bumped at some point and it was cracked, again, no big deal. You assume this is evidence of something far more nefarious for some reason. All I asked was for advice on refinishing the housings, that's it.

The trim boot isn't in great shape but it's there, and again, you're making weird assumptions about multiple paint jobs and coming up with interesting backstory on nav troubleshooting. The connector was clearly on when it was painted, and disconnected recently, as everything was clean. My mechanic opened up that area and showed me during the prebuy/annual, they must have disconnected the antenna for whatever reason and missed it when putting the cover back on.

What's wrong with just saying "hey that jack screw boot looks like it's in bad shape, might want to check it out" without implying that complete structural failure is imminent based on half a photo? Maybe just chill out.

The guy I bought the plane from is pushing 90 years old and he's had it since the late 90's, there's going to be a lot of little things that got deferred over the years. I have multiple mechanics that I talk to on a regular basis. I like sharing my "journey" but I don't really need or appreciate your theorycrafting nor does it add anything valuable to the conversation.

[Aviationist]

My fault, I missed that part of the story.  The problem with just saying "hey your boot looks bad" is that when you post, the story keeps not matching the pictures.  The fact that the paint shop just painted over the hinge and jackscrew, including all hardware - points me to the fact that this was not what would be considered a quality paint job completed by a reputable shop (all of which remove and replace nearly all hardware.  That entire area should have been masked off, but inexplicably it was not.  Typically when you paint an aircraft all flight surfaces, panels, and controls are removed and painted separately and re-installed with new hardware - That is why I say (and still say) you should look closely at the assembly of the flight controls.  Clearly this paint shop cut corners.  Did they disassemble as per the norm or did they paint in place?  did they paint the hardware or did they replace the hardware - and if they replaced it was it assembled properly.

 

You have already found one thing that potentially could have killed you, and has killed others in the past.  You have described a non working NAV system that clearly was not working properly when you bought it (a flipped cable like that would likely not have worked).  All I'm saying is that the story told from the previous owner is not adding up, and the further you dig the more you are finding.  Some things are clearly obvious, others, like a potentially improperly re-assembled elevator or weight assembly which requires specific procedures to be completed after painting, might not be so obvious.  

 

Did you fly it at the pre-buy?

[Rmfriday]

was this plane at Skywagons?

If so it is a nice looking plane!

good luck working through the few small items we all find with a new plane!!

 

[jeremyc209]

9 minutes ago, Rmfriday said:

was this plane at Skywagons?

If so it is a nice looking plane!

good luck working through the few small items we all find with a new plane!!

 

Yep, and thank you!

[jeremyc209]

[Slick Nick]

Are you sure you had a thorough pre buy done? Between that janky panel wiring, the corrosion under the fuel cap, simple things like unplugged connectors being missed, I’d be having some serious words with who ever you paid to do that inspection. Stuff like that should have been caught and noted by even the most unscrupulous mechanic. 

I have to agree with the sentiments on the paint job. While it may look nice from 15 feet, the close up photos that you’ve posted show a paint job that was hastily applied, and where the preparation is in question. 

I understand you may have an emotional attachment to this aircraft, but don’t take it personally. People are trying to help you out, and it seems as though you may be blinded by rose colored glasses. It’s important with something as complex as an aircraft, to which you are entrusting you life and the lives of your family and others, that you be vigilant with stuff that you find, no matter how insignificant it may seem. 

It’s not so much the corrosion on the fuel neck that’s the issue itself, that piece can be replaced. It’s that the things which were missed were so obvious, what else is wrong with the aircraft that you haven’t found yet? I have a hard time believing that airplane was stored in a hangar, unless it didn’t have a roof on it. I suspect there is much more corrosion to be found behind access panels, etc. I hope you got one hell of a deal on it, there are unfortunately lots of garbage airplanes out there where buyers are conned into ownership by a fancy looking paint job. Someone went to the trouble to spend all that money on paint and a J model windshield, but couldn’t be bothered to install the radios properly? What else was done half-assed?

Edited Wednesday at 09:13 PM by Slick Nick

[Aaviationist]

Let me ask a hard question I hope you can answer truthfully-

if that tiny amount of fuel wasn’t floating not floatIng at the top would you have recognized it to be water?

[Slick Nick]

2 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

Let me ask a hard question I hope you can answer truthfully-

if that tiny amount of fuel wasn’t floating not floatIng at the top would you have recognized it to be water?

That’s a good point. I wonder how much corrosion has taken place within the fuel system. That cap has been leaking for years, wouldn’t surprise me if those tanks and lines have seen a bunch of water, which if left unchecked can quickly cause corrosion in the entire fuel system. 

[jeremyc209]

3 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

Let me ask a hard question I hope you can answer truthfully-

if that tiny amount of fuel wasn’t floating not floatIng at the top would you have recognized it to be water?

Yes, water sounds and flows differently, it doesn't evaporate quickly, plus it's literally a different color. I knew something was wrong before the sample even finished filling. It's almost like I was trained on how to check for water in the fuel tanks. 
 

4 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

I have a hard time believing that airplane was stored in a hangar, unless it didn’t have a roof on it.

Here's a video from 4 years ago of the plane in the same carpeted hangar that it came out of last month when I bought it. It's been there a lot longer.

You guys don't have the whole story, so you fill in the gaps with worst case scenario stuff. If it's genuine concern, I appreciate that, but I hope you can appreciate that you're missing a ton of information that I have. I didn't come here to open an investigation into the history of my aircraft, I've already done my due diligence. It's honestly kind of amazing the conclusions you two are coming to with so little info.

It's a local plane. Its prior field (PVF) is 20 minutes from me. I've spoken with numerous people on that field including the reputable mechanics that worked on the plane for years, Hangtown Aviation. I got my Mooney transition training from a fellow Mooney owner and CFI that has a hanger across the aisle from where this aircraft was stored.

The previous owner was not an "open checkbook" kind of guy, but did take care of the plane, and kept very good records. For example, from the day he purchased it in 1996, I have a "flight log" of every flight he made since then. He basically doubled his logbook workload to create a separate log for the aircraft which included the route, times, and notes, and maintenance intervals. I have a large box full of records that came with the plane. It was not a ramp rat sitting in the corner for years as you two seem to think.

I don't think he did much if any flying in rain, and in the last few years only flew with a safety pilot. My best guess on the filler neck corrosion was that it's been there for a long time he deemed replacement unnecessary for that reason. The door and baggage seals let some drips through but I found no evidence of corrosion or standing water inside when we stripped the interior.

I did have a good prebuy done and was there for a chunk of it to inspect myself. I have talked to them and they are going to make it right for missing the filler neck pitting.

Maybe, if you're just trying to "help me out", stick to advice on the current situation instead of making up stories about the history of the aircraft? What's the point of that anyways, you think I'm going to return the aircraft? Get a "post-buy" because a couple guys flipped out over a disconnected nav antenna? How does your opinion of the paint job that you've never seen matter? Come on now. In the last 18 months it's had 3 annuals and at least one prebuy. I think I will survive. If I don't, you can say I told you so here in this thread. I have a good relationship with my local mechanics and I take what I discover to them for advice, not just y'all.

This forum is supposed to be informational and enjoyable. Let's keep it that way.
 

[Slick Nick]

Jeremy, you need to stop taking things so personally. People are pointing things out that you may not have looked at in an effort to assist you with your new aircraft, especially since you are new to the platform. That’s what forums like this are all about, sharing information. I suggest you leave your feelings out of it and stick to the facts. 

There are a lot of “red flags” with your airplane that may warrant closer inspection of certain areas. That’s all. Whether you choose to address them or not, that’s up to you. Things were obviously missed on your pre buy, and subsequent annuals. You’ve had the same shop perform the work, sometimes it is a good idea to have fresh sets of eyes on things to provide a new perspective. Mistakes happen, but getting upset isn’t going to help you solve any of the issues. 

As I said above, it’s not the specific things that are being nitpicked, it’s the overall condition of the aircraft. For example, if the paint shop couldn’t be bothered to even mask off the area in front of the tail, what else did they cut corners on? If the pre-buy, and three subsequent annuals weren’t able to reveal the massive area of corrosion on your filler neck, what else did they miss? Did they even remove the fuel cap? Did they look inside the fuel tank to determine the condition of the sealant? It’s obvious that no, they didn’t, or else they would have easily spotted that corrosion. 

Are you starting to understand the problem here?

[jeremyc209]

21 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

People are pointing things out that you may not have looked at

Correction: I have been pointing things out that I have found myself and asking for advice about those specific things. Nothing you two have offered has been helpful, and you just ignore any explanation that doesn't fit with your narrative.

I did not buy a perfect aircraft, nor did I ever claim to have, nor am I pretending to have. I am expecting to find other issues, but I feel confident that the major items were covered in the prebuy and annual that I had done, and that I paid a fair price for what I got. 

34 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

Are you starting to understand the problem here?

Oh, absolutely.

[DCarlton]

On 3/3/2025 at 11:39 PM, jeremyc209 said:

Found the stainless fuel filler necks on Lasar, I think, $740 each  and out of stock. Will make some calls. 

Anyone have a good preflown set? Is the stainless replacement pretty much the only route? 

We just removed the fuel cap flanges on my ‘67F to install bladders.  They come with new fuel caps.   If they are the same part, you can have them for the cost of shipping.  If interested I’ll make some pics.  I’ll need to make certain we won’t need the parts.  

[jeremyc209]

6 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

We just removed the fuel cap flanges on my ‘67F to install bladders.  They come with new fuel caps.   If they are the same part, you cam have them for the cost of shipping.  If interested I’ll make some pics.  I’ll need to make certain we won’t need the parts.  

Yes! That sounds great, I'll look up the catalog for your F to compare part numbers and PM you. Thank you!

[DCarlton]

Just now, jeremyc209 said:

Yes! That sounds great, I'll look up the catalog for your F to compare part numbers and PM you. Thank you!

I may have time to check the parts manual tomorrow too.  Theres a chance it’s the same part.  BTW, before I reconditioned my fuel caps I used to cover them with masking tape prior to any major rainy periods.