Bad News from the FAA regarding Landing Gear Actuator (Gear Set)

[Shiroyuki]

7 hours ago, Matthew P said:

Mooney was purchased by a Chinese company, started to build aircraft in China, eventually sold their interest in Mooney yet retained the license to build in China...understood they were losing about $20k per acft

I never knew they were building mooneys in china. I was aware Mooney was developing a trainer for chinese market. 

If you have a clearer source of this I might be able to get in contact with them.

[PT20J]

36 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Someone with a hell of a lot of money and time, a person that could afford something more than a Mooney aircraft as well which leaves out probably 99% of the individuals that are potentially affected by it...I won't even state my opinion regarding LASAR when it comes to price gouging.

I'm not suggesting that one person front the money. It would have to be a pooled effort where everyone would put money up front. Many years ago, I had a neighbor that owned a Mercedes gullwing 300SL and was very active in an owners club. He needed a fuel injector body. There were none available. Mercedes purchased them from Bosch, but they were long out of production. Bosch agreed to make a run of ten for $100,000. John got nine other owners together and they had them made. So, these sorts of things can be done if there are enough interested people willing to take a bit of a risk. Seems like $250,000 (50 x $5K) should be more than enough; maybe some could be returned. Or maybe the organizer should be compensated for time spent organizing the effort because it's a lot of work.

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

I never knew they were building mooneys in china. I was aware Mooney was developing a trainer for chinese market. 

If you have a clearer source of this I might be able to get in contact with them.

The difficulty I see is that the 'newer' Mooneys that China was to manufacture did not have the Dukes actuators.  Consequently, I doubt they would be a source for the gears even if they were willing to produce (unlikely they even have the necessary engineering data/drawings).

[Matthew P]

8 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

I never knew they were building mooneys in china. I was aware Mooney was developing a trainer for chinese market. 

If you have a clearer source of this I might be able to get in contact with them.

I was just being sarcastic, they only have the rights to the newest of aircraft and therefore would not have access to the parts, but the company was Meijing Group of China

[Matthew P]

Just now, Matthew P said:

I was just being sarcastic, they only have the rights to the newest of aircraft and therefore would not have access to the parts, but the company was Meijing Group of China

 

8 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

The difficulty I see is that the 'newer' Mooneys that China was to manufacture did not have the Dukes actuators.  Consequently, I doubt they would be a source for the gears even if they were willing to produce (unlikely they even have the necessary engineering data/drawings).

I was being sarcastic in reference of getting the parts from them as yo mention the aircraft they are licensed to build do not use the Dukes Actuators, but since I have the CAD drawings and Rockwell Hardness test Results was thinking about sending out the RFQ to Mexico and Chinese Gear Manufactures, would trust Mexico Gear Manufactures before Chinese..

[Matthew P]

Mr. Pollack states that he's still working the issue, so I gotta believe him, would hope if that's not the case that he'd tell me.....been working the issue with him for 6 months and he hasn't responded to my latest inquiry, but I'm chalking it up to it being the holidays, so I'll reach out again after the new year.....Just standing on his comments (below) that he provided in an interview when he took over...and the fact that the MAJORITY of Mooney customers are the ones flying the older aircraft, and our parts are important too.

Pollack reiterated, however, that the biggest message to Mooney owners is to “be patient” because the changes are “going to take a minute.” All of the resources are “literally going to keeping the lights on, and to make sure we have parts availability, and I’m going to fight like the dickens to make it happen.”

Edited December 26, 2024 by Matthew P

[MikeOH]

11 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Mr. Pollack states that he's still working the issue, so I gotta believe him, would hope if that's not the case that he'd tell me.....been working the issue with him for 6 months and he hasn't responded to my latest inquiry, but I'm chalking it up to it being the holidays, so I'll reach out again after the new year.....Just standing on his comments (below) that he provided in an interview when he took over...and the fact that the MAJORITY of Mooney customers are the ones flying the older aircraft, and our parts are important too.

Pollack reiterated, however, that the biggest message to Mooney owners is to “be patient” because the changes are “going to take a minute.” All of the resources are “literally going to keeping the lights on, and to make sure we have parts availability, and I’m going to fight like the dickens to make it happen.”

I admire your tenacity!

But, as you said, these were comments made when he FIRST took over.  The recent secrecy from Avon Gear, pushback, and loss of comms just doesn't bode well for Mooney to be the path of success, sadly.

I hope I'm wrong.

[sdmideas]

So…what happens if a set of gears are made to the current in hand drawings and hardness spec by a willing manufacturer, cycle testing done with appropriate load. Could we then just look at the data and drawings and promise left right and center not to make any more?

If we lived in Europe would there be a path forward with the EASA?

[Matthew P]

6 minutes ago, sdmideas said:

So…what happens if a set of gears are made to the current in hand drawings and hardness spec by a willing manufacturer, cycle testing done with appropriate load. Could we then just look at the data and drawings and promise left right and center not to make any more?

If we lived in Europe would there be a path forward with the EASA?

Problem has been finding a willing manufacturer, they will not deal with an individual.

[Hank]

59 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Problem has been finding a willing manufacturer, they will not deal with an individual.

LLCs are incredibly easy to start . . . .

[MikeOH]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

LLCs are incredibly easy to start . . . .

Which is probably a pretty good idea, anyway.  If someone takes on this project and goes all the way to a PMA you sure wouldn't want to expose yourself to liability!  

[1980Mooney]

14 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

since when is Mooney licensed to build in china? Never heard of such a story or news…

 

13 hours ago, Matthew P said:

Mooney was purchased by a Chinese company, started to build aircraft in China, eventually sold their interest in Mooney yet retained the license to build in China...understood they were losing about $20k per acft

Not exactly right.

• In October 2013, Mooney Aviation Company was bought by Soaring America Corporation, Chino, CA, a US subsidiary of China’s Zhengzhou-based Meijing Group (which is a real estate and import/export company.)
  • The Mooney company was renamed "Mooney International Corporation"
  • This was well documented in Mooney Flyer November 2013 on page 7
    • https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-NovTMF.pdf
  • http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-10/17/content_17040096.htm
  • https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ca/3521271a
• In September 2020, after considerable cash investment in Mooney only to cease operations in 2019,  Meijing Group sold 80% of Mooney International Corporation to "U.S. Financial LLC, WY"
  • Soaring America (Meijing Group) retained 20% of Mooney and retained the right to manufacture Mooneys in China and Africa.
  • This is well documented in the October, 2020 Mooney Flyer on page 3 and in the Aviation Week "Sounding Board: Five Minutes With Mooney International CEO Jonny Pollack".
    • Present Position
    • Sounding Board: Five Minutes With Mooney International CEO Jonny Pollack | Aviation Week Network

I don't think anyone would argue that Meijing poured a lot of cash into Mooney.  I suspect that Meijing put it on the Mooney financial books as loans....and loans that are secured by assets of Mooney like the Type Certificates, designs, engineering data, Intellectual Property as well as factory assets.  That is what any smart financial advisor or attorney would recommend. 

If any of you followed the bankruptcy of Vans Aircraft you can see the obvious parallel.  Founder Van Grunsven (and family) had supposedly sold the company to the Employees. But the company needed cash loans which Van Grunsven provided.  However, he secured all the valuable assets, engineering data, designs, certificates, manufacturing assets and building to those loans.  When Vans filed Bankruptcy, he stood at the head of the line for claims and the entire company came back to him like a big rubber band or yoyo. Upon exit of bankruptcy, the Van Grunsven family now owns 100% of Vans Aircraft.  The employees' "investment" got hosed.

Everyone wonders why Jonny can do a deal with Lasar on the Eaton "no back spring" but can't do anything with the Dukes actuator w/Mooney designed gears.  It is likely because he cannot trade away the "Dukes IP" because it is secured by loans from Meijing and he cannot do anything without their approval.  The "no back spring" was likely an Eaton design that they would rather not make any longer.  Hence they were willing to work with Jonny.  But when it comes doing anything that requires a concession by Meijing I bet his hands are tied.  Additionally, Likely Jonny is desperate to avoid bankruptcy because Meijing will get all the secured assets.  The factory building (leased from the Kerrville Airport Authority which is co-owned by the City and County) will go back to the Airport Authority.  U.S. Financial will likely lose everything.

Soaring America Corporation - the US subsidiary of Meijing - which owns 20% of Mooney is alive and well and still actively exists. Soaring America Corporation (A California Corporation) shows its principal corporate address (that is Soaring America's corporate address - not it's investment or subsidiary address)  as 165 AL MOONEY ROAD NORTH KERRVILLE, TX 78028..   

Meijing Group may have unwisely invested in Mooney but I doubt that they are stupid..

 

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by 1980Mooney

[Shiroyuki]

4 hours ago, MikeOH said:

The difficulty I see is that the 'newer' Mooneys that China was to manufacture did not have the Dukes actuators.  Consequently, I doubt they would be a source for the gears even if they were willing to produce (unlikely they even have the necessary engineering data/drawings).

 

4 hours ago, Matthew P said:

I was just being sarcastic, they only have the rights to the newest of aircraft and therefore would not have access to the parts, but the company was Meijing Group of China

They purchased an acclaim, disassembled it in Kerrville, shipped it to china and reassembled there. I found very limited information about anything else. They obtained a part 145 repair station certification from CAAC... and that's all.

The subsidary under meijing group that actually is involved with general aviation is called soaring aviation, and their website is no longer accessible. http://soaringaviation.cn/ This company has since went bankrupt as far i can tell from information on the open internet.

There is another company "Zhenzhou Mooney General Aviation", which seems be a subsidary of soaring aviation or meijing group, and their AOC was still valid on CAAC website, lastest I could find is 2022. I believe they are a flight school.

They built a ridiculous hangar in Zhenzhou City which they intend to use it as a manufacturing base for "future" mooney aircraft. They built the hanger but that's about it.

I did found two phone number but I doubt it would be working. Here: +86 0371-56995015 or 0371-68190031. I tried the second number as it was listed as the company's main landline, and it doesn't even connects.

On Google maps, this hangar still stands, no idea who owns it today... But that about all I could find about Meijing.

[Shiroyuki]

4 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Not exactly right.

• In October 2013, Mooney Aviation Company was bought by Soaring America Corporation, Chino, CA, a US subsidiary of China’s Zhengzhou-based Meijing Group (which is a real estate and import/export company.)
  • The company was renamed "Mooney International Corporation"
  • This was well documented in Mooney Flyer November 2013 on page 7
    • https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-NovTMF.pdf
  • http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-10/17/content_17040096.htm
  • https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ca/3521271a
• In September 2020, after considerable cash investment in Mooney only to cease operations in 2019,  Meijing Group sold 80% of Mooney International Corporation to "U.S. Financial LLC, WY"
  • Soaring America (Meijing Group) retained 20% of Mooney and retained the right to manufacture Mooneys in China and Africa.
  • This is well documented in the October, 2020 Mooney Flyer on page 3 and in the Aviation Week "Sounding Board: Five Minutes With Mooney International CEO Jonny Pollack".
    • Present Position
    • Sounding Board: Five Minutes With Mooney International CEO Jonny Pollack | Aviation Week Network

I don't think anyone would argue that Meijing poured a lot of cash into Mooney.  I suspect that Meijing put it on the Mooney financial books as loans....and loans that are secured by assets of Mooney like the Type Certificates, designs, engineering data, Intellectual Property as well as factory assets.  That is what any smart financial advisor or attorney would recommend. 

If any of you followed the bankruptcy of Vans Aircraft you can see the obvious parallel.  Founder Van Grunsven (and family) had supposedly sold the company to the Employees. But the company needed cash loans which Van Grunsven provided.  However, he secured all the valuable assets, engineering data, designs, certificates, manufacturing assets and building to those loans.  When Vans filed Bankruptcy, he stood at the head of the line for claims and the entire company came back to him like a big rubber band or yoyo. Upon exit of bankruptcy, the Van Grunsven family now owns 100% of Vans Aircraft.  The employees' "investment" got hosed.

Everyone wonders why Jonny can do a deal with Lasar on the Eaton "no back spring" but can't do anything with the Dukes actuator w/Mooney designed gears.  It is likely because he cannot trade away the "Dukes IP" because it is secured by loans from Meijing and he cannot do anything without their approval.  The "no back spring" was likely an Eaton design that they would rather not make any longer.  Hence they were willing to work with Jonny.  But when it comes doing anything that requires a concession by Meijing I bet his hands are tied.  Additionally, Likely Jonny is desperate to avoid bankruptcy because Meijing will get all the secured assets.  The factory building (leased from the Kerrville Airport Authority which is co-owned by the City and County) will go back to the Airport Authority.  U.S. Financial will likely lose everything.

Soaring America Corporation - the US subsidiary of Meijing - which owns 20% of Mooney is alive and well and still actively exists. Soaring America Corporation (A California Corporation) shows its principal corporate address (that is Soaring America's corporate address - not it's investment or subsidiary address)  as 165 AL MOONEY ROAD NORTH KERRVILLE, TX 78028..   

Meijing Group may have unwisely invested in Mooney but I doubt that they are stupid..

 

 

https://www.qcc.com/firm/1e5f75e164e0b57ea78be7e364bbbc39.html

This is what I found about soaring aviation china. The coporation was marked as "dishonest, with unpaid debit","limit high expenditure","subject to enforcement to collect debit"

[1980Mooney]

15 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

The subsidary under meijing group that actually is involved with general aviation is called soaring aviation, and their website is no longer accessible. http://soaringaviation.cn/ This company has since went bankrupt as far i can tell from information on the open internet.

There is another company "Zhenzhou Mooney General Aviation", which seems be a subsidary of soaring aviation or meijing group, and their AOC was still valid on CAAC website, lastest I could find is 2022. I believe they are a flight school.

 

8 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

https://www.qcc.com/firm/1e5f75e164e0b57ea78be7e364bbbc39.html

This is what I found about soaring aviation china. The coporation was marked as "dishonest, with unpaid debit","limit high expenditure","subject to enforcement to collect debit"

The problem is that you are looking at Chinese legal entities and Chinese subsidiaries of Meijing in China.

Soaring America Corporation is a US legal entity of the parent Meijing Group. (It is not "Soaring Aviation")  It is active and in good standing.  It owns 20% of Mooney International Corporation and may have secured much more of Mooney.

From the California Secretary of State today.  That is the same source as the Registration Documents above.

https://bizfileonline.sos.ca.gov/search/business

 

[Shiroyuki]

5 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

The problem is that you are looking at Chinese legal entities and Chinese subsidiaries of Meijing in China.

Soaring America Corporation is a US legal entity of the parent Meijing Group. (It is not "Soaring Aviation")  It is active and in good standing.  It owns 20% of Mooney International Corporation and may have secured much more of Mooney.

From the California Secretary of State today.  That is the same source as the Registration Documents above.

https://bizfileonline.sos.ca.gov/search/business

 

If their parent company in china is in insolvency, with multiple law suits, unmet debit obligation... What do you think will happen to Soaring America Corp?

I did some more searching about the parent company Meijing group and they are in similar situation. Got sued by multiple debtor and got hundreds of millions of assest seized.

They are a real estate developer, and they are having a very bad time. You've probably heard of evergrande, Meijing group operates in the same business area. Now chinese real estate market has gone bust, and these companies are in financial trouble.

I'm realy curious as what's going to happen. Meijing banked on Mooney because they thought there will be a booming development of general aviation in china, and that never happened. Now the parent company is in debt, a small american aircraft manufacture is probably the least of their concern... They probably just don't care anymore...

 

[1980Mooney]

6 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

If their parent company in china is in insolvency, with multiple law suits, unmet debit obligation... What do you think will happen to Soaring America Corp?

I did some more searching about the parent company Meijing group and they are in similar situation. Got sued by multiple debtor and got hundreds of millions of assest seized.

They are a real estate developer, and they are having a very bad time. You've probably heard of evergrande, Meijing group operates in the same business area. Now chinese real estate market has gone bust, and these companies are in financial trouble.

I'm realy curious as what's going to happen. Meijing banked on Mooney because they thought there will be a booming development of general aviation in china, and that never happened. Now the parent company is in debt, a small american aircraft manufacture is probably the least of their concern... They probably just don't care anymore...

Soaring America Corp is owned by Meijing.  It is not owned by "Soaring Aviation".  No doubt that Meijing is having a hard time in real estate.  That is likely why they stopped putting money into Mooney at the end of 2019.  When you say "what will happen to Soaring America Corp?".  Well for the meantime - probably nothing.  It appears that with their US Financial LLC deal, Soaring America Corp does not have to put any money into Mooney.  They can just sit there and monitor.  

A couple of years ago, Jonny and US Financial were shopping the company.  Most likely they told Soaring America/Meijing that they could flip the company and make everyone money.  Well it didn't work out and now US Financial is struggling to make payroll (like has happened so many times in the history of Mooney Corp.). Taking on any new liability likely does not work for Mooney.  And Meijing/Soaring likely are in a position to "just say no" to Jonny.

BTW - good intel on the Meijing facility and the fact that they only reassembled to planes that were shipped from Texas.

 

 

[MikeOH]

@1980Mooney

"Everyone wonders why Jonny can do a deal with Lasar on the Eaton "no back spring" but can't do anything with the Dukes actuator w/Mooney designed gears.  It is likely because he cannot trade away the "Dukes IP" because it is secured by loans from Meijing and he cannot do anything without their approval."

Most of that makes a lot of sense.  What makes you say that Mooney designed the gears?  As in, why does Mooney holds some kind of IP over what I would have assumed is a Dukes' product and their IP.

[1980Mooney]

29 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@1980Mooney

"Everyone wonders why Jonny can do a deal with Lasar on the Eaton "no back spring" but can't do anything with the Dukes actuator w/Mooney designed gears.  It is likely because he cannot trade away the "Dukes IP" because it is secured by loans from Meijing and he cannot do anything without their approval."

Most of that makes a lot of sense.  What makes you say that Mooney designed the gears?  As in, why does Mooney holds some kind of IP over what I would have assumed is a Dukes' product and their IP.

Because back on Sept. 24 Mathew P posted in the '20 or 40' topic - "From what I understand, Mooney Engineers designed the gearing to be used in the actuators and therefore the gears (drawings) are Mooney proprietary that are produced by a 3rd party vendor, which is still in business and CAN fabricate the gears but Mooney REFUSES to take/place an order for us."

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I doubt Mooney designed the gears or owns the drawings for the gears. They probably specified the stroke, force and speed of the actuator to the actuator company (Dukes) and they designed the actuator including the gears. I’m sure Dukes has all the drawings for the actuator, including the gears.

It is possible that Dukes didn’t make the gears either, they may have farmed out the gears to another shop. Who knows who that shop is. 
 

So to get new gears, Mooney will need to issue an RFQ to Dukes to find out what they want. Once the quote is issued, Mooney needs to issue a PO. Then Dukes will have to set up a project to produce the gears, which probably involves the same interaction with their gear vendor. 
 

And what if Dukes does a No Quote response? You cannot force them to make the parts. You can only negotiate at that point to find some way to convince them do it.

[Shiroyuki]

I talked to a friend of mine who is a design approve representative for TC here in canada.

he says it is possible to measure the gear, draw it in 3d cad, then do metal testing to determine the material and manufacturing process, then require approval from transport canada for PDA, which is equal to US PMA. Then the part need to be manufactured by an approved manufacturer. The problem is how much demand there is for these gears. Obviously it cost money for the initial investment, so no one would want to lose money on it.

[N201MKTurbo]

47 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

I talked to a friend of mine who is a design approve representative for TC here in canada.

he says it is possible to measure the gear, draw it in 3d cad, then do metal testing to determine the material and manufacturing process, then require approval from transport canada for PDA, which is equal to US PMA. Then the part need to be manufactured by an approved manufacturer. The problem is how much demand there is for these gears. Obviously it cost money for the initial investment, so no one would want to lose money on it.

That is the same as here. 
 

There are two ways to get a PMA. You can document that you are making exact copies of the approved part, which is what you described. You can also design new parts from scratch, in which case you need to submit all the design documentation that proves the parts meet the requirements. You will need a DER to review your engineering documents. 

[kortopates]

I think it would be more accurate to describe Mooney as a consumer of actuators, not a designer. Therefore if the original vendor of gears can’t supply them, seems Mooney would have better chance of getting a new actuator vendor to supply a replacement actuator. But since no longer producing airframes with a need to source them in bulk kills that option too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PT20J]

I always thought that Dukes made the original 20:1 gears and Mooney designed the 40:1 retrofit gear set. Does anyone know for certain if this is the case?

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, Shiroyuki said:

I talked to a friend of mine who is a design approve representative for TC here in canada.

he says it is possible to measure the gear, draw it in 3d cad, then do metal testing to determine the material and manufacturing process, then require approval from transport canada for PDA, which is equal to US PMA. Then the part need to be manufactured by an approved manufacturer. The problem is how much demand there is for these gears. Obviously it cost money for the initial investment, so no one would want to lose money on it.

I had a set of new gears scanned, measured and have the CAD files as well as the Rockwell Hardness testing of the gears