Runway separation at Uncontrolled airports

[jcolgan]

I recently ran across a YouTube video which touched on the topic of runway separation. I am based at a non-Tower airport and have always believed that you did not take off or land on a runway with another plane on it.
Do the regulations about runway separation apply at uncontrolled airports?
Our runway is a little over 6000 feet long and has a little hump to it, so if I can’t see another plane on the runway when I’m on the ground, they are beyond the hump and therefore beyond 3000 feet, so I shouldn’t need to wait to depart for landing traffic to exit.  if I can’t see them (they are past the hump) there is enough room to safely depart, and it appears to be within regulations. I often thought that it would be safe, but I’ve never done it because I thought it was not allowed.  There are several commercial operators who try to save their brakes by slowly rolling all the way to the end of the runway before exiting.  I just want to make sure I’m not violating any rules because some of them might not respond well to my departure announcement.

[bigmo]

In short, they do not. For controlled airfields it's in the ATC procedures guide. There's no limitation at uncontrolled fields as far as I know.

As a personal practice, I'd never commence with a takeoff until the runway is completely clear. Position & hold is a-ok, but never press the go lever until that runway is 100% clear. SO many scenarios where two a/c on an active runway will end in a disaster. Flats, uncalled taxi backs, engine sputter on takeoff - all scenarios where the two planes collide.

 

[EricJ]

Yes, there are separation requirements depending on the categories of airplanes, but for small single engine airplanes you only need 3000 feet of separation.   This gets exercised at busy controlled airports, and I think the tower folks just know where the 3000 ft spot is on our runways, as it is not unusual.    I've even had the tower say, unprovoked, that there was adequate clearance with the aircraft on the runway, so that I wouldn't go around and clog up the pattern again. 

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/landing-separation-requirements-tower-and-non-towered-distance-requirements

[Pinecone]

I am totally against Line Up and Wait (Position and Hold for old timers  ) at Uncontrolled fields.  If there is a non-radio aircraft, or you miss the call, you can create a mess at a minimum and a major incident at worst.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I am totally against Line Up and Wait (Position and Hold for old timers  ) at Uncontrolled fields.  If there is a non-radio aircraft, or you miss the call, you can create a mess at a minimum and a major incident at worst.

100% agreement. "Line up and wait" is exclusively for towered airports when the Tower is open. 

[EricJ]

They do "Line up and wait" at uncontrolled fields, too.   Often when you're on short final...at least in my experience.   

[midlifeflyer]

33 minutes ago, EricJ said:

They do "Line up and wait" at uncontrolled fields, too.   Often when you're on short final...at least in my experience.   

What people “do” often has no relationship to what people “should” do.

[201er]

Sounds like a Class C runway incursion to me

https://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/resources/runway_incursions

[bigmo]

8 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I am totally against Line Up and Wait (Position and Hold for old timers  ) at Uncontrolled fields.  If there is a non-radio aircraft, or you miss the call, you can create a mess at a minimum and a major incident at worst.

Agree, but use it on occasion to help with spacing. 
The only time I do it is a) knowing what planes are in the pattern and b) a very good look of base & final.

It’s just to have a bit more control on pattern spacing. But I’d never press the go lever until the runway is clear.

All that being said. I flew routinely at an airfield that had an active ag company that just landed in the taxiway just because. I try to remember I’m probably the most safety conscious guy flying at that moment and try to make decisions accordingly.

 

[Ibra]

On 12/3/2024 at 2:30 PM, jcolgan said:

I am based at a non-Tower airport and have always believed that you did not take off or land on a runway with another plane on it

I am not well versed on FAA rules on this but I don't think you will ever find any reference to this for light aircraft operating in uncontrolled airports? so the rule is to keep it safe: empty runway is better than a full runway

Actually, for light aircraft and helicopters, under 12000 lbs? there is probably no requirement to land on the runway in the absence of TWR and ATM separation rules. Of course, there could be some local or specific rules that state so (*)? I am sure Harrison Ford, Bush, Ags, Parachuting, glider pilots will get trigged by these statements (they use wingspan as traffic separation standard and may opt for runway, grass, taxiway...).

(*) These are likely some local airport rules on how uncontrolled day VFR traffic operates, I doubt there are well documented, so ignorance is "bliss". The other side of the coin are Night and IFR:

- For VFR at night, I think you will have to land on a "night approved runway"? and that has to be an empty one?

- For IFR on instrument runway,  there are some extra constraints: an IFR can operate uncontrolled at the surface but the delivery or approach will have some sort of "one at the time" rule on how two IFR traffic can go from uncontrolled runways to controlled airspace above, however, IFR/VFR mix need to sort themselves...

Edited December 4, 2024 by Ibra

[Vance Harral]

15 hours ago, bigmo said:

Agree, but use it on occasion to help with spacing. 

Each PIC gets to make their own judgement calls, and I don't know anything about you personally, so don't take this the wrong way.  That said, most of the unofficial line-up-and-wait I observe at my local non-towered field does essentially nothing to help with spacing.  It is instead - intended or not - merely a way for an airplane on the ground to bully their way in front of an aircraft approaching to land, by establishing a dominant position on the runway.  Most of the time things works out fine, but on the occasions they don't - which is not that uncommon - the approaching aircraft is forced to go around, while the departing aircraft still gets to depart as desired.  There is then sometimes a fight on the radio where the departing aircraft insists the go-around aircraft should have stayed on the approach and that there was plenty of room.  Even setting aside the immediate safety implications of the go-around, that makes line-up-and-wait sort of a jerk move by the departing aircraft, that occasionally creates a secondary safety problem while people fight on the radio about what just happened.

When people ask me about this in an instructor capacity, I suggest they time how long it takes for them to taxi from the hold short line to the runway center line.  Some airports have strange configurations with hold-short lines that are a long way from the actual runway, and it takes 30+ seconds to taxi the distance.  I think reasonable people can agree that maybe there is a place for "unofficial LUAW" in that environment.  In contrast, at my home airport, a competent pilot can taxi from the hold short line to the runway center line in about 10 seconds.  An airplane approaching at 65 knots covers about 1100 feet in 10 seconds.  It's my assertion that if you're trying to insert yourself into a slot where an extra 1100 feet of distance is the difference between going and not going, you are probably missing the bigger risk management picture.

[Ibra]

19 hours ago, 201er said:

Sounds like a Class C runway incursion to me

I think "runway incursion" implicitly assumes there is an ATC clearance by tower? 

It's like stating there is lot of "separation loss" in pattern at uncontrolled airfields everytime somone overfly threshold, cross levels...the same for "runway & taxiway excursion", plenty of these everytime someone decides to taxi their taildragger over unpaved areas  

Edited December 4, 2024 by Ibra

[Pinecone]

Also, unless you are actually counting, most people are not great at judging time.  "I was only stopped for less than 10 seconds" shows 30 - 45 second sitting still on the airport surveillance cameras or ADSB.

[MikeOH]

JMHO, if I'm on a runway (towered/untowered, doesn't matter) I want to be moving!  Creeps me out to be stopped on a runway.  I hate getting 'line up and wait' from a tower controller; I'll taxi out onto the runway and then 'poorly' line up at a 45 angle so I can crane my neck and see what's on final!  Haven't been yelled at, yet

[Vance Harral]

32 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I'll taxi out onto the runway and then 'poorly' line up at a 45 angle so I can crane my neck and see what's on final!

That's one of my favorite tricks, I use (and teach) it all the time.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

I'll taxi out onto the runway and then 'poorly' line up at a 45 angle so I can crane my neck and see what's on final!  Haven't been yelled at, yet

The Mooney tail is backward, I am sure there is an optical illusion: tower can’t figure out if you are 45deg or 0deg or -45deg 

What ATC says something like “maintain heading, cleared for takeoff”? 

Edited December 4, 2024 by Ibra

[Marc_B]

The part of the ATC regs in the 7110.65 is found in section 3-9 and 3-10...but there's a big difference in having ATC ensure your visual separation, and turning your back on traffic and hoping they see and avoid.

3−9−6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION

Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin takeoff roll until:

a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict. (See FIG 3−9−1.)  If you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft: (See FIG 3−9−2.)

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved− 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft− 3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft− 4,500 feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft− 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.

b. A preceding landing aircraft is clear of the runway. (See FIG 3−9−3.)

3−10−3. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION

a. Separate an arriving aircraft from another aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that the arriving aircraft does not cross the landing threshold until one of the following conditions exists or unless authorized in paragraph 3−10−10, Altitude Restricted Low Approach.

1. The other aircraft has landed and is clear of the runway. (See FIG 3−10−1.) Between sunrise and sunset, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft has landed, it need not be clear of the runway if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:

(a) When a Category I aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II− 3,000 feet. (See FIG 3−10−2.)

(b) When a Category II aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II− 4,500 feet. (See FIG 3−10−3.)

2. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end. (See FIG 3−10−4). If you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft is airborne, it need not have crossed the runway end if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:

(a) Category I aircraft landing behind Category I or II− 3,000 feet.

(b) Category II aircraft landing behind Category I or II− 4,500 feet.

(c) When either is a category III aircraft− 6,000 feet. (See FIG 3−10−5.)

3. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.

Aircraft same runway separation (SRS) categories are specified in FAA Order JO 7360.1, Aircraft Type Designators and based upon the following definitions:

CATEGORY I small single−engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, and all helicopters.

CATEGORY II small twin−engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less.

CATEGORY III all other aircraft.

 

 

[Pinecone]

Since my home field is 3250 feet, it is easy.  The runway needs to be clear.

 

[Ibra]

20 hours ago, Marc_B said:

The part of the ATC regs in the 7110.65 is found in section 3-9 and 3-10

I am sure anything about "ATC separation" require "ATC clearance"? 

I know the concept of AFIS does not existe in US, it's either controlled runway with ATC or uncontrolled without ATC (well in Alaska there is an AFIS but it's rather the ATIS/AWOS broadcasting system than some human FIS/FSS in the tower)

In these airfields with AFIS (aerodrome FISO) or AG (air ground operator) there is no requirements to have runway separation minima as unlike ATC they can't issue clearances (they only give info "traffic on runway, land at your discretion"), so I highly doubt these would apply on CTAF?

The AFIS/AG rules don't require runway separation but again these are for operations that happens outside US, however, I highly doubt the standards are different on uncontrolled airfields? 

Once two pilots agree on runway in use, we can discuss LAHSO at uncontrolled airfields? 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Ibra