Buying process Help/Advice

[M20F]

  On 12/27/2024 at 11:36 PM, 0TreeLemur said:

I agree with this.  

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Anyone who won’t sign up for this assuming you are using a known MSC or otherwise respected AI, is trying to sell you a dog. 
 
I wouldn’t agree to Boots Malone AI service as example to sell my plane but would have no issue with the good folks.  

[Pinecone]

  On 12/27/2024 at 10:52 PM, hubcap said:

I have never heard of a full panel upgrade being done in 5 weeks. If you have a service provider that does that kind of work in 5 weeks you are very fortunate. Myrtle was down for 6 months when she was upgraded. I believe @Pinecone had a similar experience as well as several others here on Mooneyspace. I believe @Schllc had a project that took well over a year. 
 

I would still suggest allowing for significant downtime on major panel upgrades.

Just my opinion.

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Mine was about 4.5 months.  Some extra time finishing the annual and chasing an oil leak.

The original quote was 8 - 10 weeks.  Shop acknowledged that it took longer than they expected.

[Pinecone]

  On 12/27/2024 at 11:12 PM, M20F said:

I bought my plane from Jimmy when it was All American.  Don Maxwell annual and they paid all airworthy.  I wouldn’t buy a plane that didn’t come with an annual from an AI that I was comfortable with.  
 
A pre-purchase inspection is toilet paper.  An annual is somebody’s license/livelihood.  This topic has come up many times here with folks saying you will never buy a plane, they would never sell under those conditions, etc.  I assure you that one can get this condition and it is worth doing.  
 

My two cents only. 

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Except that if it annualled, that goes in the log book.  So when you sell, you want some shop you don't know, halfway across the country doing an annual???

The common recommendation is the shop does a PPI, that if that is good, they will complete as an annual one the buyer becomes the owner.

[0TreeLemur]

  On 12/28/2024 at 12:35 AM, Pinecone said:

Except that if it annualled, that goes in the log book.  So when you sell, you want some shop you don't know, halfway across the country doing an annual???

The common recommendation is the shop does a PPI, that if that is good, they will complete as an annual one the buyer becomes the owner.

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It's gotta be a known shop.  That's the rub.

[Schllc]

  On 12/27/2024 at 10:52 PM, hubcap said:

I would still suggest allowing for significant downtime on major panel upgrades.

Just my opinion.

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Setting realistic expectations will make all the difference in the world when walking into a big project like that. Had they told me 17 months and I had accepted it prior to beginning, it would have been a lot less stressful. 
I absolutely believe a project can take 5-6 weeks of actual manpower, and if everything is planned, ordered and or available it could be done in that timeframe. 
But if a shop told me that with confidence I would still be pretty skeptical. It not usually all their fault, sometimes it’s a quality or elective issue.  The market and regulations play a large role in your options as well. Once your plane is in 1,000 pieces of the floor of the hangar, what are you going to do?  It’s not worth litigation unless you have enough money, time and will(masochism) to hold to the principle.

Having it moved isn’t a real good option, and no one else can really work in someone else’s shop etc etc. 

Whatever someone, anyone tells you, just multiply that by three to five times and set that as your expectation.  This way if it happens on time, you hit the lotto, enjoy it. 
And when it doesn't, you will be prepared and may even be able to leverage a few freebies as a concession.  
 

I’m really not criticizing or busting anyone’s chops.  It’s just something that should be baked into the formula because it is not the exception, it’s the rule.

This would apply to any major upgrade/repair/alteration, not just avionics.  
I firmly believe it is going to get a lot worse, and a lot more expensive for a while anyway. 
There is no generation of people aspiring to work in these trades, much less in the pipeline training.  
While that may sound cynical, it isn’t really meant to be, just stressing the importance of proper expectations. These are large and discretionary decisions, it can be pleasant if it goes the way you expected….

[Schllc]

  On 12/27/2024 at 11:12 PM, M20F said:

I bought my plane from Jimmy when it was All American.  Don Maxwell annual and they paid all airworthy.  I wouldn’t buy a plane that didn’t come with an annual from an AI that I was comfortable with.  
 
A pre-purchase inspection is toilet paper.  An annual is somebody’s license/livelihood.  This topic has come up many times here with folks saying you will never buy a plane, they would never sell under those conditions, etc.  I assure you that one can get this condition and it is worth doing.  
 

My two cents only. 

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Even an annual can be misleading. 
The plane I recently purchased had what I would classify as incompetent maintenance. They didn’t do any SB’s, a lot of things done improperly, and a lot of things well out of spec.  Original landing pucks from 2006, original brake fluid, original mags one of which has never been overhauled, the list is not short. Same 3 or 4 shops did all his annuals, none of them mooney’s service centers. 
 

[Pinecone]

  On 12/28/2024 at 1:32 AM, Schllc said:

Setting realistic expectations will make all the difference in the world when walking into a big project like that. Had they told me 17 months and I had accepted it prior to beginning, it would have been a lot less stressful. 
I absolutely believe a project can take 5-6 weeks of actual manpower, and if everything is planned, ordered and or available it could be done in that timeframe. 
But if a shop told me that with confidence I would still be pretty skeptical. It not usually all their fault, sometimes it’s a quality or elective issue.  

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As I said, mine was quoted as 8 - 10 weeks.  A tech was assigned to my plane and other than lending a helping hand here are there, worked full time on it.  He was out sick 1 week and attended the AEA convention for a week.   And it took a total of about 18 weeks, which was 16 weeks of work.  Everything was in the shop months before the work started.

Shop owner admitted that it took longer than they expected.  They have done several Mooneys, but not this extensive a job.

[MikeOH]

  On 12/29/2024 at 5:00 PM, Pinecone said:

As I said, mine was quoted as 8 - 10 weeks.  A tech was assigned to my plane and other than lending a helping hand here are there, worked full time on it.  He was out sick 1 week and attended the AEA convention for a week.   And it took a total of about 18 weeks, which was 16 weeks of work.  Everything was in the shop months before the work started.

Shop owner admitted that it took longer than they expected.  They have done several Mooneys, but not this extensive a job.

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YUCK!

If I understand your post correctly, he spent 640 hours (16 weeks as a full-time employee)?  I hope you didn't pay hourly for that!  Frankly, it's hard to imagine the shop even covered his DL cost (640 x $30/hr = $19,200)...unless techs make minimum wage.

I guess my real question is if that is a typical amount of labor for a job like yours, or was the tech just slow?

[Pinecone]

Good news was that the shop did not charge extra.  There were some changes, so it was over the quote, but they only charged the extra labor for changes, but also deducted for what the original plan was.

Quote was for 400 hours (10 weeks).  So a bit over 50% longer.

Maybe tech as a bit slow, but I saw the plane every week, and it was a LOT of work.  Basically removed all the wiring and redid it.

 

[Danb]

  On 12/28/2024 at 1:39 AM, Schllc said:

Even an annual can be misleading. 
The plane I recently purchased had what I would classify as incompetent maintenance. They didn’t do any SB’s, a lot of things done improperly, and a lot of things well out of spec.  Original landing pucks from 2006, original brake fluid, original mags one of which has never been overhauled, the list is not short. Same 3 or 4 shops did all his annuals, none of them mooney’s service centers. 
 

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Sounds familiar consider purchasing your home and hopefully the due diligence you’d consider before settling on it, well many of our planes are equal or more than our home purchase put in the same thought processes as you would in your home selection and subsequent purchase.

D

[sandeepdutta]

A very big Thank you to all who responded to my request, this thread has been of immense help in the buying process. We got N41EJ home last weekend

and started my transition training with Don Kaye .

 

Sandeep

[MikeOH]

More pictures, please!

[Jetpilot86]

Use the free Savvy Logbook analysis service to have them highlight things to pay closer attention to. My buddy didn’t and is into his 340 more than it’s worth as a result. 

[Ragsf15e]

  On 4/13/2025 at 2:22 AM, Jetpilot86 said:

Use the free Savvy Logbook analysis service to have them highlight things to pay closer attention to. My buddy didn’t and is into his 340 more than it’s worth as a result. 

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I had a similar issue that they likely would’ve caught as well. I trusted my broker (and me) to catch issues and we missed one.

[gabez]

savvy offers help with pre-buy. more money short term but perhaps less money long term. 

[Yetti]

  On 4/13/2025 at 2:53 AM, Ragsf15e said:

I had a similar issue that they likely would’ve caught as well. I trusted my broker (and me) to catch issues and we missed one.

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I don't think the right word is incompetent maintenance.   It is more like breakdowns in communications and some accidental oversight.     For instance I will bet 25% or more of the fleet probably does not have the https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-264.pdf     aileron control link AD complied with.   We just found that mine was not compliant.   The reason I know it has not been complied with is that the Mooney Factory is still making (mine should be in paint shop next week)   the links.     Realize this AD covers the entire fleet all the way up to and including some of the S models.

The AD came out in 1989.   When I got the plane it was 12 years after the mandatory within 25 hours and 100 hours had passed    So there was some assumption that it had been done.  

Once someone assumes that it was done, you are not going to go looking for it.   Now as an owner we are responsible for maintenance.    How many people are 100% sure that this AD has been complied with on their plane?  Really the only way to know is if you paid the bill yourself for new ones or remember back that far to 1998 if you owned the plane then.    I would doubt highly that any prebuy would catch this.

If you are wondering, could not find used, so $2AMU from the factory.

Just for fun, I may send my old ones out to have a gusset welded into them and then sell them.  Apparently there is shop near Hobby that can do welding.

Thread from 2023 where some non AD compliant ones were found.    

 

[Yetti]

And since I am procrastinating on taxes.     How many of you know for certain that all your placards are proper and in place?    One recent FAA inspection I heard about that is what they were interested in.   Not checking that the wings were attached, but making sure all the placards were proper.

[Fly Boomer]

  On 4/13/2025 at 3:14 PM, Yetti said:

For instance I will bet 25% or more of the fleet probably does not have the https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-264.pdf    

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The AD that references this SB is 98-24-11.

[Hank]

  On 4/13/2025 at 4:34 PM, Yetti said:

And since I am procrastinating on taxes.     How many of you know for certain that all your placards are proper and in place?    One recent FAA inspection I heard about that is what they were interested in.   Not checking that the wings were attached, but making sure all the placards were proper.

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Because we all know that it is paperwork that makes airplanes fly . . . .

[MikeOH]

  On 4/13/2025 at 5:20 PM, Hank said:

Because we all know that it is paperwork that makes airplanes fly . . . .

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Yuup, the kind with pictures of dead Presidents

[Yetti]

  On 4/13/2025 at 5:20 PM, Hank said:

Because we all know that it is paperwork that makes airplanes fly . . . .

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In this case proper placards are what make the fancy jets fly.

[Max Clark]

  On 4/12/2025 at 5:10 PM, sandeepdutta said:

A very big Thank you to all who responded to my request, this thread has been of immense help in the buying process. We got N41EJ home last weekend

and started my transition training with Don Kaye .

 

Sandeep

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Congrats!