No Back Clutch Spring M20-282-0001 Eaton Kit Update Good News

[1980Mooney]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:57 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Jonny Pollack mentioned this at MooneyMax 2024 that Mooney had given LASAR the authority to order these parts and distribute them to Mooney owners. 

 

On 10/21/2024 at 9:48 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

So, PMAs are not exclusive. You can make them too. Go for it and see if you can sell legal ones cheaper.

 

On 10/21/2024 at 10:57 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

LASER made it happen. If there springs are too expensive, buy it somewhere else.

 

23 hours ago, EricJ said:

It looks like Lasar just ordered them from existing Mooney drawings/specs/part numbers and is marking them up.   I'm reluctant to give them any credit for doing any engineering here.   

 

23 hours ago, PT20J said:

Eaton makes a number of linear actuators for various airframe manufacturers. Mooney likely specified the requirements, but most likely Eaton owns the design and manufacturing drawings.

 

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

There's also OPP.   Companies that make springs are not hard to find in the grand scheme of things.   If somebody is faced with no longer being able to justify repeated multiple AMU hits for small parts, it's always an option.

 

14 hours ago, Pinecone said:

LASAR holds the PMA, not Eaton, so they have to inspect and accept the parts, and then are in the liability chain, and may be the buck stops here point.

Lasar posted on their website:

• LASAR INC is pleased to return to market the crucial Eaton "no-back" clutch spring, as specified in Mooney SB M20-282. Initial quantities are limited with a manufacturing lead time of 32 weeks. 

Can someone with knowledge explain exactly what happened?

• Lasar says it is selling the "Eaton" spring. It sounds like they are just marketing a spring the comes from Eaton (That Eaton sources from one of Eaton's suppliers).  Lasar are not saying they are selling a compatible replacement spring, not a PMA part - they are selling the Eaton spring
• People here are talking OPP and PMA
• People note that Eaton probably owns the drawings/IP/Knowhow/testing
• People are saying "Jonny gave Lasar authority to order" - that does not sound like IP/drawings/material specs where transferred.  That sounds like a contractual arrangement to just sell directly to a MSC.
• Do some think that Lasar is going to find a spring supplier and fabricate a compatible spring?
  • Who is going to life cycle test it?
  • Or is that why the first ones to buy will be getting it at a Discount?

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lasar posted on their website:

• LASAR INC is pleased to return to market the crucial Eaton "no-back" clutch spring, as specified in Mooney SB M20-282. Initial quantities are limited with a manufacturing lead time of 32 weeks. 

Can someone with knowledge explain exactly what happened?

• Lasar says it is selling the "Eaton" spring. It sounds like they are just marketing a spring the comes from Eaton (That Eaton sources from one of Eaton's suppliers).  Lasar are not saying they are selling a compatible replacement spring, not a PMA part - they are selling the Eaton spring
• People here are talking OPP and PMA
• People note that Eaton probably owns the drawings/IP/Knowhow/testing
• People are saying "Jonny gave Lasar authority to order" - that does not sound like IP/drawings/material specs where transferred.  That sounds like a contractual arrangement to just sell directly to a MSC.
• Do some think that Lasar is going to find a spring supplier and fabricate a compatible spring?
  • Who is going to life cycle test it?
  • Or is that why the first ones to buy will be getting it at a Discount?

It is probably just what it says. 
 

The springs were ordered from Eaton. They will be the original springs from the OEM. So, no new engineering or testing required. 
 

It is possible that LASAR isn’t the evil money grabber that everybody is saying. It is probably Eaton that is the problem. They probably had to assign a new team to find and dust off the old drawings and procedures, probably write new procedures that fit into their current process, re-establish vendor relationships and order the springs. They may have test procedures that haven’t been run in years using test equipment and fixtures that may not exist anymore, or at a minimum need to be revalidated. 
 

Eaton is in the business to make money, all that work isn’t free. Somebody has to pay for it.

[N201MKTurbo]

Large aerospace companies that do a lot of government work are not known for being cheap or efficient. I have done work for quite a few. When a program is terminated, like the manufacturing of Mooney actuators, all the parts and equipment from the program go into the dumpster to make room for the next program. If somebody later orders spare parts from the previously terminated program, it is a whole new program.

Eaton may be paying $20 for the springs. You are not paying for the springs, you are paying for the program.

[LANCECASPER]

Just speculating. . . . but it could also be that Mooney owed Eaton money and this order will clear up that debt as well. That might be what Mooney is getting out of this deal.

[Pinecone]

Remember, someone tried the OPP route, but was unable to source a broken spring to determine alloy and heat treatment.   And the gear project is running into issues finding someone to do the testing to determine alloy and hardness.

Not quite so simple.

Also, didn't Eaton make the batch of bad springs?

[Mike J]

On 10/21/2024 at 8:42 PM, toto said:

There are many many threads on MS discussing the no-back spring. 

Basically, there’s a very small number of confirmed failures that resulted in gear-up landings, and the failures are mostly attributed to manufacturing defects in the springs themselves. The original bad batch was installed as original equipment from the factory, and at least one aircraft has had a failure in a replacement spring. 

The collective wisdom here I think is that your NBS is very unlikely to fail, and it’s probably low on the list of reasons Mooneys land gear-up.

Don Maxwell has been paraphrased here a number of times saying that they can tell at annual if a spring is chattering during gear swing tests and that you’ll know well before it fails.

And anecdotally, they seem to fail more often on retraction than extension (so you’re stuck with gear down, not with gear up). 

I think you meant on extension….:)

[toto]

21 minutes ago, Mike J said:

I think you meant on extension….:)

I meant that the springs fail more often when you put the handle up (so the gear are stuck down if the spring breaks).

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Remember, someone tried the OPP route, but was unable to source a broken spring to determine alloy and heat treatment.   And the gear project is running into issues finding someone to do the testing to determine alloy and hardness.

Not quite so simple.

Also, didn't Eaton make the batch of bad springs?

Yes. I think that is the only reason that we have a Service Bulletin.

[Lax291]

This spring is obscenely expensive (cost might be justified based on run size and risk) and I'm seeing if some can be made for much less.

I've been in contact with a spring manufacturer and to move to the next step they need a print with tolerances. Thinking that is proprietary info, but checking to see if that document exists in the public domain?

If someone has an unused spring, I can get it 3D scanned to make a file from it and send it back to you. 

Tough part might be figuring out the metallugry. 

[N201MKTurbo]

For a PMA, you can make an exact duplicate, or make one with equivalent performance. 
 

Clutch springs are not unusual pieces. They can be reverse enginerred. 
 

What I haven’t heard yet is anybody on Mooneyspace reporting about a conversation with the FAA about getting a PMA. Ya’all want to talk to everybody except the ones that really matter.

[PT20J]

For sure Eaton has plenty of insurance. They make a bunch of similar actuators for various aircraft applications. We aren't privy to Mooney's arrangement with Eaton, Mooney's deal with LASAR, or LASAR's deal with Eaton. Maybe everyone is feeding at this trough. Who knows? 

[ericrynehess]

I’m employed at an engine manufacturer who still produces legacy products designed decades ago. From my experience that price LASAR stated, $116k for 45 springs, is probably true. It’s also probably true that 200 springs could cost $125k due to way suppliers price their minimum order quantities. I wouldn’t be surprised there is something like this happening and LASAR is getting a lot more than 45 springs out of this deal. These prices are certainly many times more expensive than the true cost because it isn’t worth their time to make them for less. 45 parts is nothing and it’s taking time away from producing something else.

Years ago when my employee badge was still wet I got into an argument with some supply chain people for stainless spacers I needed on hand in order to release a service bulletin to fix an issue. They had calculated we’d sell about 30 spacers a month. So they ordered 30 spacers a month at $30 a piece. They could have ordered 1000 spacers for $1000 but didn’t want the inventory. I could not change their mind. I’m not sure what price we sold those simple washers at but I’m sure it was several times the cost. Apply this logic to parts much more complicated than a spacer. 

Someone earlier mentioned companies dumping tools and equipment that go unused and that’s true. Eaton may make these themselves and they need to fab new tools or develop routers and heat treat processes due to different equipment they possess now versus back in the day, and they need to substantiate the part is the same as before. Or they may have always outsourced this to an outside supplier and they are working with someone new now who is starting from scratch.
 

There are so many reasons why that price could be real unfortunately, even if it’s ridiculous. All these companies operate in cover their ass mode. I’m not an expert on springs but I imagine their fatigue life can be shortened greatly with the wrong heat treat properties, or small geometry differences, and whoever is making these is most likely testing them to confirm their durability. We would if anything substantial in the process changed or the supplier changed. This is partly why Continental and Lycoming engines cost such an obscene amount. 

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, Lax291 said:

This spring is obscenely expensive (cost might be justified based on run size and risk) and I'm seeing if some can be made for much less.

I've been in contact with a spring manufacturer and to move to the next step they need a print with tolerances. Thinking that is proprietary info, but checking to see if that document exists in the public domain?

If someone has an unused spring, I can get it 3D scanned to make a file from it and send it back to you. 

Tough part might be figuring out the metallugry. 

We have had this conversation many times over the last few years. 

@Sabremech said the same thing 3 years ago.

 

@Pinecone and others weighed in with pros and cons 2 years ago.

 

This conversation has been going on for 13 years.....

 

[Sabremech]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

We have had this conversation many times over the last few years. 

@Sabremech said the same thing 3 years ago.

 

@Pinecone and others weighed in with pros and cons 2 years ago.

 

This conversation has been going on for 13 years.....

 

There’s not enough profit in it for all the work and liability to reverse engineer it.

If I had this part issue, I’d look to find parts to convert it to manual gear. 
 

David

[LANCECASPER]

It might not be a bad idea, if this is the spring in your gear actuator, to have one on hand in case yours starts making noise (chattering), since this part is hard to source.

However I would trust the quiet spring thats in the actuator currently, no matter how many hours in service, much more so than a new spring being made by a new crew of people who've maybe never made that spring for Eaton before. Don Maxwell says this is a "replace on condition" part.

I won't be replacing mine in any airplane I own until I see (or better "hear") a need to do so. Infant mortality is a real thing on replacement parts and this spring has had bad batches before, which is what prompted the Service Bulletin in the first place. I hope LASAR follows a similar inspection process that Mooney did when they received new springs from Eaton.

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, Sabremech said:

There’s not enough profit in it for all the work and liability to reverse engineer it.

If I had this part issue, I’d look to find parts to convert it to manual gear. 
 

David

I believe only the aircraft models that were originally offered with manual gear can have manual gear installed because it’s in the TCDS, but for example a J model isn’t one of those.

There really shouldn’t be any reverse Engineering, it should pretty much be wind me some springs just like this, and oh by the way don’t bend the tab on one that’s already heat treated, that would get you an OPP one.

I’d be surprised if this spring is only used in an Eaton actuator, thats very uncommon, the trick would be of course to find it, and I have no idea how to do that.

Edited October 25 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

If springs are $3K, one wonders what overhauled actuators will cost now?

[toto]

2 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

If springs are $3K, one wonders what overhauled actuators will cost now?

I actually wondered whether that's an angle for Lasar.  You can get your actuator overhauled at Lasar for $3k (including the spring) or you can buy the spring for $3k and have it overhauled elsewhere - your choice.

[A64Pilot]

9 minutes ago, toto said:

I actually wondered whether that's an angle for Lasar.  You can get your actuator overhauled at Lasar for $3k (including the spring) or you can buy the spring for $3k and have it overhauled elsewhere - your choice.

I hope that’s true but suspect it’s not. I just hope actuators aren’t going to be 10K or whatever now.

[Sabremech]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I believe only the aircraft models that were originally offered with manual gear can have manual gear installed because it’s in the TCDS, but for example a J model isn’t one of those.

There really shouldn’t be any reverse Engineering, it should pretty much be wind me some springs just like this, and oh by the way don’t bend the tab on one that’s already heat treated, that would get you an OPP one.

I’d be surprised if this spring is only used in an Eaton actuator, thats very uncommon, the trick would be of course to find it, and I have no idea how to do that.

Just because it’s not in the TCDS doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Just a little more paperwork! 
 

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, toto said:

I actually wondered whether that's an angle for Lasar.  You can get your actuator overhauled at Lasar for $3k (including the spring) or you can buy the spring for $3k and have it overhauled elsewhere - your choice.

LASAR charges around $10K for an overhauled exchange actuator. You can bet that the springs aren’t costing them $3K. The other high wear part is the emergency extension clutch. I wonder where they get those. Also, there are reports of some Eaton jackscrews chipping. Same question. Before I paid $10K for an overhauled actuator, I’d want to know exactly “overhauled” entails.

[toto]

4 minutes ago, PT20J said:

LASAR charges around $10K for an overhauled exchange actuator. You can bet that the springs aren’t costing them $3K. The other high wear part is the emergency extension clutch. I wonder where they get those. Also, there are reports of some Eaton jackscrews chipping. Same question. Before I paid $10K for an overhauled actuator, I’d want to know exactly “overhauled” entails.

Do you know offhand what it costs for an overhaul at Lasar? I.e., you mail them your actuator and they mail it back?

I always had the sense that this was pretty inexpensive and a pretty quick turnaround, but I’ve never had my actuator out of the plane, so no idea really. 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Do you know offhand what it costs for an overhaul at Lasar? I.e., you mail them your actuator and they mail it back?

I always had the sense that this was pretty inexpensive and a pretty quick turnaround, but I’ve never had my actuator out of the plane, so no idea really. 

 

 

[amillet]

Prior to 2023 annual the gear warning horn would occasionally chirp when taxiing over a bump. Advanced happened to have a NBS in stock. Looks like I dodged a bullet of several AMUs

[donkaye]

14 hours ago, PT20J said:

 

 

Before he retired, Tom Rouch from Top Gun, had the procedure down cold.  I watched him do it.  He could replace the back spring in a couple of hours--around $300.  The back spring cost about $350 at the time.  

He used to refurbish gear actuators.  I bought one from him in 2016 to eliminate the Plessey actuator and its associated back spring issues (you couldn't get them).  The price at the time was a little less than $5,000.  New they were $15,000.  The good old days just 8 years ago...