20 or 40

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, I see quite a bit of wear in the middle of all the teeth (bottom photo); this is going to result in backlash when the gear wheel is mated to the worm drive shaft.  I believe it is this backlash which is the critical parameter that is measured during the SB inspection.  Likely why Tcal had the gears replaced.

That is not wear, it is built in to give clearance from the worm shaft.

[Matthew P]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Don’t you think Dukes designed the gears? It is possible that Mooney may not have the drawings for the gears. They may belong to their vendor.

Might be, but Mooney has the rights to the gears and they are only available to Mooney.

[Paul Thomas]

38 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

From what I understand, Mooney Engineers designed the gearing to be used in the actuators and therefore the gears (drawings) are Mooney proprietary that are produced by a 3rd party vendor, which is still in business and CAN fabricate the gears but Mooney REFUSES to take/place an order for us. Johnny is just as frustrated as we are as he's very customer focused, he's asked about alternatives, on behalf of some customers, but he's ignored by the engineers that he poses the questions to.

Must be nice to work in a place where you can just ignore your boss with no repercussions... that's unacceptable from both the owner and engineers and tells us about the priority of the project.

[tcal780]

I'd be willing to donate them if this project is going to lead us to a source for these gears for the community.

[Matthew P]

Just now, tcal780 said:

I'd be willing to donate them if this project is going to lead us to a source for these gears for the community.

That's what my plans are, release the info to the community, hasn't costed me anything but time and whatever the cost of the metallurgy report will be.. so not planning on charging anything, just trying to gather all of the information needed to satisfy the OPP requirements in order to proceed.

[Matthew P]

3 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

Must be nice to work in a place where you can just ignore your boss with no repercussions... that's unacceptable from both the owner and engineers and tells us about the priority of the project.

The engineers don't work for Johnny.

 

[Grant_Waite]

7 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

The engineers don't work for Johnny.

 

This makes as much sense as politics. If he’s the CEO of Mooney, whatever that name stands for anymore doesn’t he have a say in what they do? Who do these engineers even work then if it’s not Johnny? It all just seems like Texas good ol boy nonsense. 

[Matthew P]

6 minutes ago, Grant_Waite said:

This makes as much sense as politics. If he’s the CEO of Mooney, whatever that name stands for anymore doesn’t he have a say in what they do? Who do these engineers even work then if it’s not Johnny? It all just seems like Texas good ol boy nonsense. 

I'm sorry, I was confusing Johnny with Frank Crawford...Senior moment...Frank is the one that is asking about alternatives...

 

[Grant_Waite]

Yeah it seems Frank is the gatekeeper to all of this. I had to go to Don Maxwell to get what I needed. Never spoken to Frank on the phone so not sure if he’s on our side or not but sounds like it. Just seems assbackwards who’s calling the shots around there. Here’s the documents if anyone ever needs to change their gear motor to the Eaton just in case. I have it posted in the downloads section under stc and 337s 940007_F EatonPlessey upgrade.PDF

[Matthew P]

5 minutes ago, Grant_Waite said:

Yeah it seems Frank is the gatekeeper to all of this. I had to go to Don Maxwell to get what I needed. Never spoken to Frank on the phone so not sure if he’s on our side or not but sounds like it. Just seems assbackwards who’s calling the shots around there. Here’s the documents if anyone ever needs to change their gear motor to the Eaton just in case. I have it posted in the downloads section under stc and 337s 940007_F EatonPlessey upgrade.PDF

hate to ask but what did that cost?

 

[Grant_Waite]

5 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

hate to ask but what did that cost?

 

The motor cost $10715 the other required parts from bas another $500 let’s say and multiple orders from aircraft spruce for hardwares another $200 bucks maybe. I’m having Jetdriven do the install since he did the same thing to his J. His is a few serial numbers before mine. So I’ve yet to have it installed, but have all the parts. My plane was aog for 3 months and still is but I’m getting it tomorrow before the hurricane smashes it in Tallahassee. There’s quite a few parts that you need to do this conversion that take multiple miracles. I plan on photographing all the parts you need when I get it back tomorrow and documenting the install if I can. My gears didn’t fail but the emergency gear extension cable did. N201MKturbo can make a new one if the ends are good. McFarland can also make a new one for 3 k and 3-4 weeks lead time. I didn’t like the idea of the gears going bad or the cable, so I decided to do the next best option since I fly my plane a lot. 
 

[tcal780]

Matthew P,

PM me your address. I'll ship them out tomorrow.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

That is not wear, it is built in to give clearance from the worm shaft.

@Pinecone

I don't agree.

1) Tcal indicates that wear was why they were taken out of service; consistent with excessive backlash.

2) My research on worm gear design on this site (https://khkgears2.net/catalog5/ has many drawings, photos, and descriptions that do NOT show any such tooth width variation.  They do discuss backlash and the tooth dimensions that cause it.  Again, the variation in tooth width, wide at the ends and narrow in the middle, is evidence of wear.

I'm willing to reconsider if you can cite some design information supporting your contention.

[Matthew P]

32 minutes ago, Grant_Waite said:

The motor cost $10715 the other required parts from bas another $500 let’s say and multiple orders from aircraft spruce for hardwares another $200 bucks maybe. I’m having Jetdriven do the install since he did the same thing to his J. His is a few serial numbers before mine. So I’ve yet to have it installed, but have all the parts. My plane was aog for 3 months and still is but I’m getting it tomorrow before the hurricane smashes it in Tallahassee. There’s quite a few parts that you need to do this conversion that take multiple miracles. I plan on photographing all the parts you need when I get it back tomorrow and documenting the install if I can. My gears didn’t fail but the emergency gear extension cable did. N201MKturbo can make a new one if the ends are good. McFarland can also make a new one for 3 k and 3-4 weeks lead time. I didn’t like the idea of the gears going bad or the cable, so I decided to do the next best option since I fly my plane a lot. 
 

Are the gears still good, if so, would you consider selling

[Matthew P]

30 minutes ago, tcal780 said:

Matthew P,

PM me your address. I'll ship them out tomorrow.

Done, thanks

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Don’t you think Dukes designed the gears? It is possible that Mooney may not have the drawings for the gears. They may belong to their vendor.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the original 20:1 gears were a Dukes part and that Mooney designed the 40:1 gears for retrofit when they discovered that the 20:1 gears were wearing out prematurely.

[MikeOH]

6 minutes ago, PT20J said:

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the original 20:1 gears were a Dukes part and that Mooney designed the 40:1 gears for retrofit when they discovered that the 20:1 gears were wearing out prematurely.

I've always wondered what's really going on with the wear.  My gears are 20:1 original (at least there isn't any entry in the logs) and are now 54 years old and still pass inspection. What is 'wearing out prematurely?'  I like the speed of my 20:1 gears and would much prefer to replace them with new 20:1 gears when the time comes...I won't be around when they 'prematurely' wear out

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the gears that wear out were not regularly inspected and regreased properly.  Maybe the 40:1 will take that kind of abuse?

[Matthew P]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the original 20:1 gears were a Dukes part and that Mooney designed the 40:1 gears for retrofit when they discovered that the 20:1 gears were wearing out prematurely.

I've asked for both parts, 20:1 and 40:1 and was told the same...unfortunately, unless the FAA comes through, I will only have info (CAD drawings and metalurgy report) for the 20:1 gear sets, I'm sure a gear manufacturer could take the drawings from the 20:1 gears and come up with drawings for 40:1, I will certainly ask the question once I get the metalurgy report and able to send out for quotes.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Grant_Waite said:

Yeah it seems Frank is the gatekeeper to all of this. I had to go to Don Maxwell to get what I needed. Never spoken to Frank on the phone so not sure if he’s on our side or not but sounds like it. Just seems assbackwards who’s calling the shots around there. Here’s the documents if anyone ever needs to change their gear motor to the Eaton just in case. I have it posted in the downloads section under stc and 337s 940007_F EatonPlessey upgrade.PDF

I've always found Frank Crawford very responsive and customer oriented. He has helped me out with several issues including providing factory data for making repairs. He can verify part numbers and tell you what Mooney has in stock. He cannot sell you a part or quote price and delivery because Mooney only sells parts through Mooney Service Centers and the MSCs do their own ordering, stocking, and set their own retail prices. 

[MikeOH]

49 minutes ago, Grant_Waite said:

The motor cost $10715 the other required parts from bas another $500 let’s say and multiple orders from aircraft spruce for hardwares another $200 bucks maybe. I’m having Jetdriven do the install since he did the same thing to his J. His is a few serial numbers before mine. So I’ve yet to have it installed, but have all the parts. My plane was aog for 3 months and still is but I’m getting it tomorrow before the hurricane smashes it in Tallahassee. There’s quite a few parts that you need to do this conversion that take multiple miracles. I plan on photographing all the parts you need when I get it back tomorrow and documenting the install if I can. My gears didn’t fail but the emergency gear extension cable did. N201MKturbo can make a new one if the ends are good. McFarland can also make a new one for 3 k and 3-4 weeks lead time. I didn’t like the idea of the gears going bad or the cable, so I decided to do the next best option since I fly my plane a lot. 
 

Dang!  Even the shipping charge is painful to view

[Echo]

38 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I've always wondered what's really going on with the wear.  My gears are 20:1 original (at least there isn't any entry in the logs) and are now 54 years old and still pass inspection. What is 'wearing out prematurely?'  I like the speed of my 20:1 gears and would much prefer to replace them with new 20:1 gears when the time comes...I won't be around when they 'prematurely' wear out

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the gears that wear out were not regularly inspected and regreased properly.  Maybe the 40:1 will take that kind of abuse?

What is your airframe time?  I also have 20:1 Dukes.  3600AFTT for me.

[MikeOH]

19 minutes ago, Echo said:

What is your airframe time?  I also have 20:1 Dukes.  3600AFTT for me.

Coming up on 5900

[Grant_Waite]

2 hours ago, Matthew P said:

Are the gears still good, if so, would you consider selling

Yeah, Lasar just did the ad inspection for me and yellow tagged it. Replaced one 20 dollar bearing. I don’t know if it has 20:1 or 40:1.  It just got installed back in the plane so I could get it airworthy to fly until I get the other motor and mods installed in late October. Not sure what it’s worth but I’ve seen them be between 4-6k. I won’t have any use for any of the old parts. So if anyone wants them as spares or replacements feel free to pm about them. 

[Grant_Waite]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Dang!  Even the shipping charge is painful to view

In comparison it was nothing to the motor. That’s what overnight from Oregon to Florida will cost you. I didn’t want to take any chances of it getting lost or destroyed. 

[Matthew P]

11 minutes ago, Grant_Waite said:

Yeah, Lasar just did the ad inspection for me and yellow tagged it. Replaced one 20 dollar bearing. I don’t know if it has 20:1 or 40:1.  It just got installed back in the plane so I could get it airworthy to fly until I get the other motor and mods installed in late October. Not sure what it’s worth but I’ve seen them be between 4-6k. I won’t have any use for any of the old parts. So if anyone wants them as spares or replacements feel free to pm about them. 

$4-6k for just the gears?