Seizure of Mooney M20E on tribal lands

[N201MKTurbo]

This may shed some light on why the tribe is acting the way they are.

https://bloggingcircle.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/whats-up-native-american-aviation-and-airspace-2/

 

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

This may shed some light on why the tribe is acting the way they are.

https://bloggingcircle.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/whats-up-native-american-aviation-and-airspace-2/

 

Interesting article, but seems more focused on overflight for commercial purposes.  I didn't see anything relevant to the instant case of one individual landing merely to access, and pay for, a Grand Canyon tour.  Other than maybe the tribe is looking to 'get even'?

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Interesting article, but seems more focused on overflight for commercial purposes.  I didn't see anything relevant to the instant case of one individual landing merely to access, and pay for, a Grand Canyon tour.  Other than maybe the tribe is looking to 'get even'?

This doesn’t look to me like it’s  about getting even. This looks like a very small sandbox with two officials locked in a pissing contest. This looks like small town political standoff. The pilot is the pawn.

[DXB]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I don’t really see what this guy’s religion, size of his house, or in which community he lives has to do with the situation.

Juggling the demands of multiple spouses and the overall complexity of his domestic life might leave him on the brink of insanity, making him particularly reliant on his Mooney outings for his emotional health. That might both cloud his judgement and make potential seizure of the aircraft even more devastating.     

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

This doesn’t look to me like it’s  about getting even. This looks like a very small sandbox with two officials locked in a pissing contest. This looks like small town political standoff. The pilot is the pawn.

I can see that as another possibility.  But it seemed like that feud started AFTER the pilot got harassed; in other words some official got word there was a plane on their landing strip and they blocked it in.  That happened before the whole kerfuffle within the tribe.

[IvanP]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

This may shed some light on why the tribe is acting the way they are.

https://bloggingcircle.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/whats-up-native-american-aviation-and-airspace-2/

 

Interesting points. I guess that the tribe could also install some SAM launchers to shoot down those pesky small planes that dare to overfly their territory without permission.  That would really show those arrogant pilots who is in charge here.  

For a tribe that lives off tourists, this seems to be a rather boneheaded move. Regardless of the alleged lack of permission or what not, this situation should be a non event that people with common sense could resolve by respectful communication. We may not know the whole story, but I doubt that the pilot had any ill intent toward the tribe and their land.   

[GeeBee]

Generally money fixes most these "tribal lands" transgressions. We were pheasant hunting a fence line in SD once when 3 of a party of 6 found themselves on the wrong side of the fence, tribal land. You could hunt there but needed a tribal hunting license, 100 dollars. So what was the fine for hunting on tribal lands without a license? 100 dollars. The ranger was essentially a collection service. 

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, DXB said:

Juggling the demands of multiple spouses and the overall complexity of his domestic life might leave him on the brink of insanity, making him particularly reliant on his Mooney outings for his emotional health. That might both cloud his judgement and make potential seizure of the aircraft even more devastating.     

That’s a reasonable assertion. The demands of just one spouse and multiple kids has me on the brink more often than not.

[FlyingDude]

12 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The plane freaks out the people at the gas station.

As long as they look with their eyes and keep their hands in their pockets (or if they can't do that, then in their sacral sphincters).

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 9/1/2024 at 8:44 PM, KLRDMD said:

Tribal lands are sovereign nations. US laws do not apply. I worked at a tribe part-time for five years. It is a whole 'nuther world. My professional malpractice insurance would not cover me there. I had to become an employee of the hospital to be covered by their policy. I flew there for work most days and was given permission to land at the tribal airport. I chose to land instead at a public airport down the highway.

Maybe I need to recommend my clients carry hull war risk (covers government confiscation) even if they're only flying inside the US.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Generally money fixes most these "tribal lands" transgressions. We were pheasant hunting a fence line in SD once when 3 of a party of 6 found themselves on the wrong side of the fence, tribal land. You could hunt there but needed a tribal hunting license, 100 dollars. So what was the fine for hunting on tribal lands without a license? 100 dollars. The ranger was essentially a collection service. 

Pretty much the case with transgressions everywhere. The reason I believe his story is because he was not able to negotiate for a more reasonable fine. He’s still likely to pay more defending this than the $2400 they requested to put it to bed.
 

[GeeBee]

17 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Pretty much the case with transgressions everywhere. The reason I believe his story is because he was not able to negotiate for a more reasonable fine. He’s still likely to pay more defending this than the $2400 they requested to put it to bed.
 

Sometimes you got to “rub your neck and write a check”

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Maybe I need to recommend my clients carry hull war risk (covers government confiscation) even if they're only flying inside the US.

Good point!

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Maybe I need to recommend my clients carry hull war risk (covers government confiscation) even if they're only flying inside the US.

Is that expensive or not?   Sounds like it might be a nice option. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

13 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Is that expensive or not?   Sounds like it might be a nice option. 

It's not expensive.  It also covers the usually excluded riots, strikes, and civil commotions. 

 

Even after the major claims involved with Russia seizing airliners, it's not expensive, IMO.  Russia's seizures will take up probably 40-100 years of aviation war premium at past rates.

[Yetti]

It's like going on a cruise ship, once you are 8-16 miles offshore the US laws are not in play.   Works both ways, now that his plane is back the odds that the tribe can seize it are very small. The FAA is in play with federal statutes.   https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/32

[Deb]

The 4 charges were dismissed by a judge (one charge of entering an area without a special use permit was dismissed with prejudice). The tribe has the option of refiling the other 3 charges. Video here: 

 

[MikeOH]

Damn glad to hear how this worked out.  Although the idea these alpha hotels may still be able to refile is disgusting.

The video referred to a 'public highway' that is adjacent to the airport. There is implication that this highway runs THROUGH the reservation.  This begs the question as to who has jurisdiction while you are driving on this highway.  IOW, does the possibility exist that these thugs could pull you over for a 'traffic violation' and confiscate your car?  Or, is that highway completely under the jurisdiction of the Arizona Highway Patrol?

[Smiles201]

I worked on a reservation in New Mexico. Jicarilla Apache, and with other native tribes in the state. There was a beautiful airstrip that got very little use. Unless you've been there, it is hard to believe or understand how things work. Yes there are rules and laws,  but what counts is who you know. In an agency with ten employees, such as the police department,  depending on the day,  you will get several opinions and assurances. Not to disparage native culture, there are good reasons for the fragmented nature of the tribe, but things work differently on the rez.

[IvanP]

Good outcome. Note to self - stay away from tribal lands. Not worth the risk.

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, IvanP said:

Good outcome. Note to self - stay away from tribal lands. Not worth the risk.

I've had good experiences fishing on tribal lands, both Cherokee in NC and Nez Perce in MT; used a guide in a boat in MT, waded the creeks on foot in the Appalachians. Good fishing, nice folks in both places. 

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, Smiles201 said:

I worked on a reservation in New Mexico. Jicarilla Apache, and with other native tribes in the state. There was a beautiful airstrip that got very little use. Unless you've been there, it is hard to believe or understand how things work. Yes there are rules and laws,  but what counts is who you know. In an agency with ten employees, such as the police department,  depending on the day,  you will get several opinions and assurances. Not to disparage native culture, there are good reasons for the fragmented nature of the tribe, but things work differently on the rez.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm certain I don't know 'who to know'...combine that with what happened to this poor guy and I don't plan to EVER set foot on a rez, and definitely won't be spending a dime of my tourist dollars there.  It's their land but treating visitors this way does NOT seem like the best marketing plan to attract tourists!

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Damn glad to hear how this worked out.  Although the idea these alpha hotels may still be able to refile is disgusting.

The video referred to a 'public highway' that is adjacent to the airport. There is implication that this highway runs THROUGH the reservation.  This begs the question as to who has jurisdiction while you are driving on this highway.  IOW, does the possibility exist that these thugs could pull you over for a 'traffic violation' and confiscate your car?  Or, is that highway completely under the jurisdiction of the Arizona Highway Patrol?

Lots of public highways go through reservations all over the country.    I fly into airports on tribal land fairly frequently, but they're public airports not marked PVT.   I grew up in SoDak and owned property there until recently and have lived most of my life in AZ, and in both states a fair percentage of the land is reservations.   I've spent lots of time on the reservations in both states, and in AZ there are places where you need permits to go on the reservations, but it's usually not too big of a deal to get the required permits.   This really isn't much different than special use areas off the reservations.   The canyon area this guy was visiting is one of the reservation special use areas that requires permits just to be there, so that was already a similar thing, and hundreds or thousands of people go there every year since it's a very popular area. 

It's also possible and frequently happens that somebody runs afoul of some local authority or pissing match between authorities off reservations as well.   This case doesn't seem to be any different from what I can see, so from that perspective this isn't a tribal thing it's just a typical thing of running afoul of somebody who wants to exercise their authority.   I had the US Border Patrol threaten to seize my car because we stopped at a checkpoint when I was taking a foreign colleague (Kiwi from New Zealand) to Tombstone just to do some tourist stuff.   He didn't have his passport with him, so the threats were that I was going to get busted for transporting an illegal, they were going to seize my car, arrest me, deport him, etc., etc.    This was not on a reservation, it was on a US public highway.   We were detained for hours.   Because he didn't have his passport on him.

It's not a tribal thing, imho.   You can run into it anywhere.

[MikeOH]

@EricJ

Good perspective, thanks. Thing is, I've been lucky enough NOT to run into that problem in the U.S.  Problem is, it doesn't look like I have much in the way of U.S. rights when I'm on a rez; not seeing a good reason to take the chance after this debacle.

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

Lots of public highways go through reservations all over the country.    I fly into airports on tribal land fairly frequently, but they're public airports not marked PVT.   I grew up in SoDak and owned property there until recently and have lived most of my life in AZ, and in both states a fair percentage of the land is reservations.   I've spent lots of time on the reservations in both states, and in AZ there are places where you need permits to go on the reservations, but it's usually not too big of a deal to get the required permits.   This really isn't much different than special use areas off the reservations.   The canyon area this guy was visiting is one of the reservation special use areas that requires permits just to be there, so that was already a similar thing, and hundreds or thousands of people go there every year since it's a very popular area. 

It's also possible and frequently happens that somebody runs afoul of some local authority or pissing match between authorities off reservations as well.   This case doesn't seem to be any different from what I can see, so from that perspective this isn't a tribal thing it's just a typical thing of running afoul of somebody who wants to exercise their authority.   I had the US Border Patrol threaten to seize my car because we stopped at a checkpoint when I was taking a foreign colleague (Kiwi from New Zealand) to Tombstone just to do some tourist stuff.   He didn't have his passport with him, so the threats were that I was going to get busted for transporting an illegal, they were going to seize my car, arrest me, deport him, etc., etc.    This was not on a reservation, it was on a US public highway.   We were detained for hours.   Because he didn't have his passport on him.

It's not a tribal thing, imho.   You can run into it anywhere.

Did the student have a record of lawful admission on his person?  I’m not suggesting he deserved to be harassed.  Some Authority figures behave badly regardless of whether a law has been broken; it’s that much more egregious when no statute has been violated.