Panel upgrade

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, Echo said:

60k to 70k in a vintage Mooney on avionics is bat$&*# crazy.

EXACTLY!!

[ArtVandelay]

Call me salty.  Way tomuch money is wastedon avionicsupgrades.

And you’re wasting too much money on just having a plane whether it’s steam panel or glass.
If it’s about money, sell your plane.

[Z W]

Old planes deserve upgrades too.

We put a non-WAAS Garmin 430 in a vintage M20C at a time when it was "way too much money" compared to the value of the airframe.  This was before WAAS, and before you could put a G3X or GFC500 in anything.

It turned the plane into a really amazing IFR cross-country machine.  No more flying VOR to VOR.  Non-precision approaches down to about 500 ft AGL anywhere in the country.  145 knots at 10 GPH.  Was a total game changer.  That was what we were buying.  It was still cheaper than buying a more expensive plane with that capability already in the panel.  Got my instrument rating with that panel.

We later again paid "way too much money" (something like 1/3 of the plane's value) to properly repair and replace a corroded wing spar cap in the same plane.  Why?  It was a good, known plane and didn't deserve the scrap yard.  It's still flying out there somewhere.

You can buy the panel you want to fly behind in anything.  If it's a M20C, you're getting that panel for far less than most other capable cross-country travelers.  If you upgrade the plane you have, you aren't buying another owner's unknown list of squawks and deferred maintenance.  It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but you.  But I get why you'd do it.

[Joshua Blackh4t]

10 minutes ago, Z W said:

Old planes deserve upgrades too.

We put a non-WAAS Garmin 430 in a vintage M20C at a time when it was "way too much money" compared to the value of the airframe.  This was before WAAS, and before you could put a G3X or GFC500 in anything.

It turned the plane into a really amazing IFR cross-country machine.  No more flying VOR to VOR.  Non-precision approaches down to about 500 ft AGL anywhere in the country.  145 knots at 10 GPH.  Was a total game changer.  That was what we were buying.  It was still cheaper than buying a more expensive plane with that capability already in the panel.  Got my instrument rating with that panel.

We later again paid "way too much money" (something like 1/3 of the plane's value) to properly repair and replace a corroded wing spar cap in the same plane.  Why?  It was a good, known plane and didn't deserve the scrap yard.  It's still flying out there somewhere.

You can buy the panel you want to fly behind in anything.  If it's a M20C, you're getting that panel for far less than most other capable cross-country travelers.  If you upgrade the plane you have, you aren't buying another owner's unknown list of squawks and deferred maintenance.  It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but you.  But I get why you'd do it.

Your expensive GPS added functionality that made a lot of difference to your flying. Great, its worth it.

Repairing a known good plane, also sounds fully reasonable to me.

But all the pretty screens.... I mean, I wish I had them, but what do they REALLY do for you?

Sure its quicker to load a flight plan. But even at 150kts, most flights are many hours long. If I don't load them while warming up/taxi, then I have plenty of time later.

I can't talk about IFR, but my Aera can set up a glideslope and MSA for pitch black nights. Do I trust it 100%? No, but close enough with visual/backup instrument verification.

This isn't to say anything bad about anyone who wants to make their plane as sweet as they wanted, but the OP just wants to go on longer legs, and honestly, there is no reason why the plane as is can't make it 350-400nm as it is. I stand by a fuel flow guage as most important upgrade for him, and a portable aviation GPS, with ADSB in.

An autopilot would be great in so many ways. But I actually like flying. And don't have all that much else to do up there. So I'd stay as I am until it gets a reasonable price.

FYI, over 100hrs a year, lots of long distance trips, up to 10hrs in a day sometimes

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

Everyone has a way of justifying either what they do or what they don't do.

If someone wants to take an older airplane and make it as capable as a new airplane and they can justify it, why not? About ten years ago, maybe more, John Breda @M20F-1968 took a nearly 50 year old F model and made it as nice as any Mooney coming off the line in Kerrville. I'm sure it's a source of great enjoyment and he gets a sense of accomplishment every time he looks at his airplane, knowing where it came from and where it is today. @Bob_Belville took an E model and transformed it into a work of art. When people do that, they don't need any one else's permission or validation. Let them enjoy what they did.

If someone else decides they want to fly theirs' as it came from the factory years ago, why should anyone else care?

We don't all have to agree. If the only reason we come on Mooneyspace is to have our own opinion validated, why bother? If we come on here to learn and to broaden our horizons it's a great forum. I have not only learned a lot here but I've allowed my opinions on subjects to change as I opened up my mind and saw others' point of view.

[TheAv8r]

Would you not put a modern, programmable thermostat inside a house from the 60s simply because it's old? How many still have their stove, oven or fridge from the 1960s, or have you replaced and upgraded it?

I think a lot of it comes down to mission, if you're buzzing around within 50nm on 99% of your flights, a G3X is probably overkill. If you're flying IFR XC's every month, than autopilots, a modern WAAS GPS, and solid-state digital displays become more important for the safety, capability, and additional situational awareness they provide. There are some who put more into their panel than they would regularly use, but to argue you shouldn't invest in additional capabilities that match the flying you're doing simply because the airplane is old is silly. 

There was a $170k 1966 E model that sold on TAP a few months ago that had a decked out panel. The owner probably didn't get everything back, but it did ADD value to the plane that you could get out of the sale, it's not just burned money.

[BlueSky247]

@LANCECASPER gets my write in vote for the presidential election!

[BlueSky247]

I think the biggest objection most have to the big panel upgrades is just the sheer expense, and how long it takes the plane out of commission. I think we can all agree that if there was a 10-20k all-in option that could be done in a couple of weeks, we'd all have it.

 

Personally, I'm finding the additional safety options, more and better data readouts and reducing busywork in modern avionics to be really compelling. 

[ArtVandelay]

I think the biggest objection most have to the big panel upgrades is just the sheer expense, and how long it takes the plane out of commission. I think we can all agree that if there was a 10-20k all-in option that could be done in a couple of weeks, we'd all have it.
 
Personally, I'm finding the additional safety options, more and better data readouts and reducing busywork in modern avionics to be really compelling. 

Weren’t avionics were even more expensive years ago (corrected for inflation)?
I did some checking, a 430 when introduced was about $10k…in today’s dollars that’s more than $19k.
So the GTN is more capable and “only” $12k.

[BlueSky247]

13 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Weren’t avionics were even more expensive years ago (corrected for inflation)?

 

Excellent point! And you are right.  I think in general, we tend to get spoiled by the availability of cheap tech like phones and tablets that in reality have their development costs subsidized by external factors.  And without getting political, I think most would agree that in general, income levels have not kept pace with inflation. With new Corollas starting at 22k, it's easy to see why 2-3 times that on a panel upgrade can seem like a needless extravagance. 

[Echo]

Defending the indefensible.  There is a lot of that going around lately.

[Echo]

I am starting to believe there are paid influencers on this site.  

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Everyone has a way of justifying either what they do or what they don't do.

That is the truth!

Despite my not seeing the logic in spending more than I paid for my plane in upgrading to fancy glass, I don't begrudge anyone that chooses to do so.  It's your money and you should be completely free to spend it on whatever makes you happy.  After all, we are here discussing major FIRST world issues, and are all damn lucky to own anything that flys!

Where I get 'edgy' is when I'm told these upgrades 'enhance safety' and 'situational awareness'.  The subtle, but tacit, implication is that NOT upgrading I'm not as safe a pilot as I could (should) be.  THAT unspoken accusation does not sit well with me.  It smacks of, if you don't have enough money to 'properly' equip your plane with the latest and greatest, then you are unsafe and shouldn't be flying.  Again, no one has come out and blatantly stated that...but there's an underlying tone to some posts...

[0TreeLemur]

The C I bought in 2017 had a Brittain wing leveler.   Loved that thing, especially in turbulence.

Over the first three years I owned it I added the Accutrak II magenta line follower, the Accuflite heading bug chaser, and the PC/AH II Dynertial rate of climb control and altitude hold.   It took work to find the parts, but none of them cost more than 1 AMU each when bought correctly.  With the help of advice of Brittain fans here on the forum and an A&P who was willing to let me do the installation research and provide guidance, I had a full two-axis autopilot capability for probably less than 6 or 7 AMUs.  I flew it in some soupy  IFR conditions.   The Brittain equipment is extremely well thought out, reliable, and I would say elegant.  That is a cost effective certified A/P option if you have the patience and desire.  As far as I know, Brittain will still provide STCs for correct installations at no cost if you can locate the equipment.

[M20C]

[M20C]

I still like my iPad mini the best!

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Where I get 'edgy' is when I'm told these upgrades 'enhance safety' and 'situational awareness'.  The subtle, but tacit, implication is that NOT upgrading I'm not as safe a pilot as I could (should) be.  THAT unspoken accusation does not sit well with me.  It smacks of, if you don't have enough money to 'properly' equip your plane with the latest and greatest, then you are unsafe and shouldn't be flying.  Again, no one has come out and blatantly stated that...but there's an underlying tone to some posts...

I think that the new stuff makes it EASIER that with the older equipment.   Not that you are less safe without it, but it is easier to be safer with it.

[Echo]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:39 AM, LANCECASPER said:

Everyone has a way of justifying either what they do or what they don't do.

If someone wants to take an older airplane and make it as capable as a new airplane and they can justify it, why not? About ten years ago, maybe more, John Breda @M20F-1968 took a nearly 50 year old F model and made it as nice as any Mooney coming off the line in Kerrville. I'm sure it's a source of great enjoyment and he gets a sense of accomplishment every time he looks at his airplane, knowing where it came from and where it is today. @Bob_Belville took an E model and transformed it into a work of art. When people do that, they don't need any one else's permission or validation. Let them enjoy what they did.

If someone else decides they want to fly theirs' as it came from the factory years ago, why should anyone else care?

We don't all have to agree. If the only reason we come on Mooneyspace is to have our own opinion validated, why bother? If we come on here to learn and to broaden our horizons it's a great forum. I have not only learned a lot here but I've allowed my opinions on subjects to change as I opened up my mind and saw others' point of view.

Clearly I don’t come here for validation lol

[Echo]

22 hours ago, MikeOH said:

That is the truth!

Despite my not seeing the logic in spending more than I paid for my plane in upgrading to fancy glass, I don't begrudge anyone that chooses to do so.  It's your money and you should be completely free to spend it on whatever makes you happy.  After all, we are here discussing major FIRST world issues, and are all damn lucky to own anything that flys!

Where I get 'edgy' is when I'm told these upgrades 'enhance safety' and 'situational awareness'.  The subtle, but tacit, implication is that NOT upgrading I'm not as safe a pilot as I could (should) be.  THAT unspoken accusation does not sit well with me.  It smacks of, if you don't have enough money to 'properly' equip your plane with the latest and greatest, then you are unsafe and shouldn't be flying.  Again, no one has come out and blatantly stated that...but there's an underlying tone to some posts...

I don’t begrudge anyone going upside down. Just don’t agree with it. Just spend the money on something that is close and make it yours. Of course if you have time and skill like Breda, do it yourself and save. I enjoy looking at beautiful panels. Keep spending your money. Vendors appreciate you. 

[Schllc]

22 hours ago, MikeOH said:

The subtle, but tacit, implication is that NOT upgrading I'm not as safe a pilot as I could (should) be.

I think some folks do imply that, if any of my comments have been construed that way I apologize, it was never my intention. 
I think if a person has been flying steam gauges for 30 years, the argument is specious.   They are probably more proficient and safer with what they are intimately familiar.

Personally, I have been flying with a glass panel since about 15 hours into my ppl. 
I feel safer with the information arranged in a way I am accustomed to seeing, so I spent more on a panel for my recent plane, than I paid for the plane. 
If any upgrade adds to awareness or the ability to keep from being over saturated in duress, it’s worth it to me. 
The stakes in flying could not be higher, and we should all make decision that we feel are in our best interests. I don’t judge anyone for their decisions, unless it’s simply a function of money.  Avoiding any necessary repair or upgrade simply because one doesn’t want to spend the money, isn’t any smarter or safer than upgrading without regard for the cost. 

stay safe guys!
 

[MikeOH]

@Schllc

It's all good; you were not one of the posters I was alluding to.

[M20C]

On 7/11/2024 at 9:52 AM, BlueSky247 said:

I think the biggest objection most have to the big panel upgrades is just the sheer expense, and how long it takes the plane out of commission. I think we can all agree that if there was a 10-20k all-in option that could be done in a couple of weeks, we'd all have it.

 

Personally, I'm finding the additional safety options, more and better data readouts and reducing busywork in modern avionics to be really compelling. 

I think, depending on what you want to install, 20K is very doable...

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, M20C said:

I think, depending on what you want to install, 20K is very doable...

OK, I'll bite.  I have a 430W, STEC-30 w/ALT, G3 Insight engine monitor, and StrikeFinder. Also use Foreflight on an iPad.

What, with installation, am I going to get for $20K that will do more than what I already have?

[M20C]

In California, not much:-)

 

You already have the expensive part...the 430W.  The strike finder could be sold for some of your next upgrade expense (with ads-b, who needs it).  Next decide if you want a dynon or duel G5's... Lots of options.. my panel was about 10K (auto-pilot, dual G-5's, 430 and Ram mount for the iPad mini)..

 

Even with inflation the extra $10K ($20,000 total) leaves lots of wiggle room;  your milage may vary

Edited July 14 by M20C
Spelling...ugh!

[ArtVandelay]

OK, I'll bite.  I have a 430W, STEC-30 w/ALT, G3 Insight engine monitor, and StrikeFinder. Also use Foreflight on an iPad.
What, with installation, am I going to get for $20K that will do more than what I already have?

With GTN Xi paired with GFC500 (probably closer to $30K):
Smart glide
VS, IAS climbs and descents.
VNAV
ILS, LPV coupled approaches down to minimums.
Airway support.
Visual approaches
No worry about lack of support (stec or 430).
And probably a lot of other stuff I can’t remember.

The question is if any of that is important to you.